M10 with Live View - I'm wrong to yawn about this ?

[zlatkob]

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Just because you and some others don't like it, Leica should care and not add this feature?

 

There are two common sentiments:

- being opposed to anything new in principle; and

- assuming that anything new would have the poorest imaginable implementation (in the case of live view: obvious delay, too bright, too contrasty, too jittery, etc.)

 

If in the past Leica responded only to such sentiments, they would not have created the M9. There was a time when people said they would never use digital for any serious photography. Digital wasn't "real" photography; it lacked quality and lacked soul. People may forget that digital used to be the crap-end of photography (Sony Mavica, etc.). The point is: as a new technology advances, people who were once adamantly against it one day find it eminently useable, useful and desirable. I think camera manufacturers are wise to be forward-thinking and anticipate this.

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[bocaburger]

So if you are saying you are cost sensitive and don't want to pay too much for your photo equipment, why are you using this brand?

 

I am value sensitive, and I use Leica because they are currently the only company in the world making an opto-mechanical rangefinder camera with a digital sensor.

[bocaburger]

- assuming that anything new would have the poorest imaginable implementation (in the case of live view: obvious delay, too bright, too contrasty, too jittery, etc.)

 

Very recently, Leica introducted the X2 with an EVF. It is the same EVF made by or for Olympus. They also have an EVF for the DLux-5, which is the same EVF sold by Panasonic. The only differences between the Leica-branded product is an approximate doubling of the price. So you'll have to pardon me if I'm skeptical Leica has developed some proprietary new live-view/EVF technology for the M10. Therefore yes, I am assuming it won't be any better than other EVFs, which is to say, improving with each generation but still far from commensurate with a $10K camera.

[sdai]

There are two common sentiments:

- being opposed to anything new in principle;

 

It's not opposition to anything new IMO, rather, it's opposition to something inferior in nearly all aspects which at best, should only be considered as a "nice to have".

 

The inclusion of an EVF is an attempt to drive into lower-end consumer market other than technology advancement. Otherwise, why wouldn't Leica include one with the S2? ;-)

[AlanG]

It's not opposition to anything new IMO, rather, it's opposition to something inferior in nearly all aspects which at best, should only be considered as a "nice to have".

 

The inclusion of an EVF is an attempt to drive into lower-end consumer market other than technology advancement. Otherwise, why wouldn't Leica include one with the S2? ;-)

 

If they could they would. There is a demand for live view on MF and technical cameras and the only implementations so far have been very limited compared to the smaller CMOS cameras.

[jaapv]

Well, I'm waiting for Leica's integrated EVIL construction whenever that may appear. Despite not being full frame probably (rather irrelevant for long lenses) I feel it will be far more sophisticated than a stick-on EVF.

[AlanG]

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It's not opposition to anything new IMO, rather, it's opposition to something inferior in nearly all aspects which at best, should only be considered as a "nice to have".

 

Inferior to what exactly? Leica doesn't make a 35mm DSLR system so if you want to have through the lens viewing from Leica in this format there will be no alternative such as an optical visoflex or DMR making a re-appearance.

 

But in many ways an EVF is superior to a reflex system... magnified view, focus confirmation for any location, focus peaking, flexible data overlay, brighter image in low light, immediate exposure feedback and intuitive exposure control, ability to spot color lighting/balance issues, etc. The price for all of this is that the image has to be represented on an electronic screen instead of on a ground glass. So that is the compromise for something instead of nothing.

[AlanG]

Well, I'm waiting for Leica's integrated EVIL construction whenever that may appear. Despite not being full frame probably (rather irrelevant for long lenses) I feel it will be far more sophisticated than a stick-on EVF.

 

I don't see why this would matter since Sony's "stick-on" EVF is exactly the same as the one built into the Nex 7.

[sdai]

If they could they would. There is a demand for live view on MF and technical cameras and the only implementations so far have been very limited compared to the smaller CMOS cameras.

 

Please don't confuse live view with EVF. Live view properly implemented on a backlit LCD screen is extrememly useful and I personally find it more appealing and reliable than some phase detection AF coupled with optical finders in certain applications.

 

If the alleged S3 really is going to use the ST microelectronics CMOS chip then I have little doubt that it will include live view too - just not via an EVF.

 

Live view ≠ EVF

[jaapv]

I don't see why this would matter since Sony's "stick-on" EVF is exactly the same as the one built into the Nex 7.

Since when is a Leica a rebadged Sony ? The NEX 7 is indeed an integrated NEX5 more or less, but the Leica EVIL will certainly not be a revamped M10.

[sdai]

Well, I'm waiting for Leica's integrated EVIL construction whenever that may appear. Despite not being full frame probably (rather irrelevant for long lenses) I feel it will be far more sophisticated than a stick-on EVF.

 

I won't hold my breath for that but I agree with you, if they are into it - it better to be built from scratch instead of living with compromises.

 

A whole collection of AF lenses comparable to the M lenses in terms of performance and sizes are simply awesome. I hope they wrap up with the M for now and let the M10 be the last of its breed - don't mean to kill the system but there's no apparent need nor too many possiblities to "improve" it further. :-)

[mjh]

The inclusion of an EVF is an attempt to drive into lower-end consumer market other than technology advancement.

Surely you are joking. The M will never enter the lower-end consumer market, EVF or no EVF.

 

Otherwise, why wouldn't Leica include one with the S2? ;-)

Because the S2 doesn’t support live view. I’d venture a guess that at some point in the future there will be an S supporting live view and you can count on it having an EVF, be it an internal or an optional external one (that I guess would depend on how far EVF technology will have progressed by that time).

[mjh]

Live view ≠ EVF

Yes, but if you want live view you want an EVF. Unless you are happy holding the camera at arm’s length to watch the live view image on the display.

[pico]

Well, I'm waiting for Leica's integrated EVIL construction whenever that may appear. Despite not being full frame probably (rather irrelevant for long lenses) I feel it will be far more sophisticated than a stick-on EVF.

 

A stick-on EVF would allow some technical evolution of the finder while retaining the spendy body, rather than replacing the whole body. If the EVF is properly designed the 'smarts' will be chips in the EVF so that body dependency is minimized.

[pop]

A stick-on EVF also would allow you to use it on an extension cord, thus eliminating the need for many calisthenics exercises, I hope.

[bill]

Hmm... I never thought I would hear the words "Leica" and "stick-on" in the same sentence...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[sdai]

Surely you are joking. The M will never enter the lower-end consumer market, EVF or no EVF.

 

Yes, that's a bad argument. I should have rephrased it to say it's Leica's latest effort to draw consumers from the lower-end market. ;-)

 

I’d venture a guess that at some point in the future there will be an S supporting live view and you can count on it having an EVF, be it an internal or an optional external one (that I guess would depend on how far EVF technology will have progressed by that time).

 

Now I'm baffled with this one ... so the alleged S3 is CMOS based but doesn't support live view? or there isn't a S3 this fall after all because it's waiting for a decent EVF ???

 

Yes, but if you want live view you want an EVF. Unless you are happy holding the camera at arm’s length to watch the live view image on the display.

 

Michael, you do a lot of tests and comparisons on your job, could you tell me how you feel between a Sony A700 and a A77 if they've ever put them side by side by any chance? - I'm only curious about the viewfinders here.

 

Personally, I have my cameras on tripod most of the time and I'm quite happy watching the display from a comfortable distance - even with the D800E, now I use the back LCD more often than the optical finder.

 

When it comes to medium format digital, I suspect that a lot more people will agree with me - which is exactly why the Mac and iPad apps developed by Phase One and Hasselblad are getting so popular, right?

[mjh]

it's Leica's latest effort to draw consumers from the lower-end market. ;-)

The Panaleicas do a fine job at that. Nothing to do with the M line.

 

so the alleged S3 is CMOS based but doesn't support live view? or there isn't a S3 this fall after all because it's waiting for a decent EVF ???

All I’m saying is that at some time in the future there will probably a CMOS-based S, just as there will probably be a CMOS-based Hasselblad or PhaseOne. When the time is ripe, i.e. not this year or the next. This camera will obviously support live view and an EVF. Associating electronic viewfinders with a ‘lower-end market’ is throughly misleading, and not just because cameras for the low-end market, as a rule, don’t have a viewfinder of any kind. In the future, all cameras will support live view and at least the midrange and high-end models will support electronic viewfinders, be they of the built-in or the add-on variety. Obviously they may also sport an optical viewfinder and it may turn out that those of the rangefinder type will last longer than those of the SLR type.

 

could you tell me how you feel between a Sony A700 and a A77 if they've ever put them side by side by any chance? - I'm only curious about the viewfinders here.

It’s a long time I’ve handled an Alpha700 but the EVF of the Alpha77 is certainly one of the nicer ones, both with regard to resolution and to latency. I suppose I will be able to compare the Alpha700’s successor to Sony’s EVIL models at photokina but will it still have an optical viewfinder? Sony may be the first camera vendor to declare the optical viewfinder extinct.

 

When it comes to medium format digital, I suspect that a lot more people will agree with me - which is exactly why the Mac and iPad apps developed by Phase One and Hasselblad are getting so popular, right?

Tethering to tablet computers is quite attractive in a studio setting, but not so much elsewhere. Only the low-end market doesn’t require viewfinders.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[sdai]

I suppose I will be able to compare the Alpha700’s successor to Sony’s EVIL models at photokina but will it still have an optical viewfinder? Sony may be the first camera vendor to declare the optical viewfinder extinct.

 

That perhaps is why the pro sector still don't quite accept Sony and take it seriously. I don't grasp a crystal ball and can't tell the future but to say the least, EVF is still far from mature for many critical applications.

 

Tethering to tablet computers is quite attractive in a studio setting, but not so much elsewhere. Only the low-end market doesn’t require viewfinders.

 

I personally don't care about studio setups but I do architecture, interior and macro stuff quite often and I find tethering to tablets/laptops one of the greatest features out there.

 

Once again, I wish to thank you for your thoughtful response ... they are always quite informative and interesting.

[rosuna]

Sony and Panasonic will show new generation EVFs at Photokina. The EVF of the Olympus OM-D is pretty good and perfectly useable. In fact, it is great, and a much better solution than the poor pentamirrors of the typical low price reflex cameras. Compared to typical pentaprisms of APS-C reflex units, the EVF of the OM-D has many strong points. And, of course, cine cameras...

 

Several brands are abandoning the optical finders: Sony, Panasonic, Olympus... Only niche markets will need or ask for optical viewfinders (a few products from Canon, Nikon, Pentax or Leica). The mass market is for EVFs at 90% at this moment. This is not the future, it is the present.

 

The M system will offer an optical viewfinder, rangefinder and manual focus lenses for many years, but a new line of cameras with M mount and EVFs are possible and a very tempting for Leica.

 

The technology is ready and practical right now.