Leica M2-S?

[sksaito]

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A merchant is advertising an M2-S as a later M2-R military version M2. The top plate engraving just says M2, though. True?

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[luigi bertolotti]

That's about correct : the M2S is, basically, a M2 with the film rapid loading system of the M4 : they were part of a US mIlitary set identified as KS15-4, and had the standard "M2" engraving on top : according to Lager, they ought to be into the 1.163.xxx 1.164.xxx range (Lager displays item # 1.164.285 : seems that two batches were made : 1.163.150 - 1.163.770 and 1.164.046 - 1.164.300)

On the contrary, the M2 R (same as M2 S, a sort of production overrun of the military batch) does bear the "M2 - R" engraving, and was regularly sold as such to public (in US only - there is also a specific user manual) with numbers 1.248.201 to 1.250.200 - the last M2 made. They are uncommon and interesting variants of the time in which M2 and M4 coexisted (1967 to 1970 about).

Edited July 14, 2012 by luigi bertolotti

[doubice]

And to make things complicated - the M2S designation was also used to describe a regular M2 with a selftimer. The original M2, when introduced, came without a selftimer. Later, the selftimer-equipped M2 became another variant (a.k.a. M2S) and towards the end of the M2 production, only selftimer-equipped M2 was produced. This last variant dropped the 'S' from its name and the camera became 'just' an M2, since selftimer-less bodies were not available anymore.

 

Needless to say - the M2S designation on the regular M2 bodies was only a trade name, used by the importers and dealers - it was never engraved on the top of the camera.

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

[luigi bertolotti]

And to make things complicated - the M2S designation was also used to describe a regular M2 with a selftimer. The original M2, when introduced, came without a selftimer. Later, the selftimer-equipped M2 became another variant (a.k.a. M2S) and towards the end of the M2 production, only selftimer-equipped M2 was produced. This last variant dropped the 'S' from its name and the camera became 'just' an M2, since selftimer-less bodies were not available anymore....

 

Jan

 

 

To complicate even more, when the M2 had the selftimer as standard , in USA Leitz NY decided to invent the "M2 X" designation to list a cheaper version, with no self timer... the 1964 US catalog even has a proper code (and price) for it... of course, it also has the normal "M2" engraving...

[sksaito]

So is it harder to sell this type of M2 without the R on the top plate as a military version camera? I noticed sellers on eBay trying to convince buyers that it truly is a military version but potential buyers are wear because they just don't know.

[doubice]

The M2-R was a 'civilian' version of the M2S and is engraved as such. It is very easily recognized not only because of the engraving but also because of the M4-type quick load take-up spool.

 

It would be a lot easier for all of us to help you if you provided a link to the camera you are looking at - we'd be able to tell right away whether the camera is real or not.....

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

Edited July 15, 2012 by doubice

[sksaito]

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The M2-R was a 'civilian' version of the M2S and is engraved as such. It is very easily recognized not only because of the engraving but also because of the M4-type quick load take-up spool.

 

It would be a lot easier for all of us to help you if you provided a link to the camera you are looking at - we'd be able to tell right away whether the camera is real or not.....

 

Cheers,

 

Jan

 

I'm actually looking to buy an M2 advertised as such. Sometimes I sell my cameras later and was just worried. Thank you.

[luigi bertolotti]

So is it harder to sell this type of M2 without the R on the top plate as a military version camera?...

Well , the M2S , even if is not engraved specifically is, in itself, a rare camera which is not uncorrect to describe as "military"... provided that it has a S/N within the above quoted ranges : but fact is that the only difference from a std. M2 is the film loading system... which can be found also on "normal" M2, given that Leitz did provide it as a service for M2 users : so, all in all, even if "rare" in term of numbers made, the M2S is no way a "special" camera : the KE7 A (military M4) is more significant as a special, expecially because had a special lens, a proper bag, engravings etc... the M2S has no special military identification... which makes one think that maybe Van Hasbroek is right when writes that US Army did CANCEL the KS15-4 order, and cameras were normally sold, later on bringing to the M2 R breed

Edited July 15, 2012 by luigi bertolotti

[frame-it]

#1163509 M2-S has popped up for sale here, approx 5000US$

 

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[luigi bertolotti]

Well... the s/n is "good", the price asked not ☺️ (imho)

[willeica]

https://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Leitz/M2S.html

However, the number of examples shown is small, so it is difficult to determine a representative price.

William 

[derleicaman]

On 9/5/2022 at 3:08 PM, willeica said:

https://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Leitz/M2S.html

However, the number of examples shown is small, so it is difficult to determine a representative price.

William 

Only three sold copies, and very old at that. Most recent one was in 2009. I think $5K is reasonable for one these days. I got mine back in the 80's when I had my store. Had someone bring it in and I bought it. I didn't realize what I had purcahsed until some time later when I opened the camera up, and lo and behold a rapid load! Checked the serial number and I realized I had done very well with this being a KS-15(4). Still have it in my collection along with it's sibling M2-R. Two of my faves!

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by derleicaman

[alan mcfall]

My KS-15 came as an outfit, camera 1163445  and 3 lenses with close serial numbers, all, 22xxxxx.  A cable release with contract notes, and a case with the sticker in photo two.  FLTAVCOMLANT decodes as Fleet Audio Visual Command Atlantic. Further investigation finds "Underwater photo team/Combat camera group".  A US Navy camera group, Atlantic team. Hope they didn't try to use the Leica underwater!

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