What will be the next lens to get APO?

[Jeff S]

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I would replace all my M lenses with new weather sealed lenses if Leica ever produced a sealed digital M to mate. Forget M-APO, I'll take M-WS.

 

Jeff

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[algrove]

There is no such thing as "trivial GAS". Just ask Leica.

[lars_bergquist]

Nice shot Lars. Do you recall the shutter speed and ISO?

 

Further to my #18 post, I have had some very nice 135 shots, but have to admit most occurred after getting the Walter Eye Piece.

 

ISO250 and 1/3000, says the Exif data. And no focusing magnifier. A standard exposure would have been 1/2000 at 1:5.6, but you can see tha there are no extensive shadow areas in the picture.

 

The old man from the 135mm Age

[lars_bergquist]

[ ... ]So, I think that, to have a good medium-term perspective for the very lucrative lenses' business, something on the cameras' side is mandatory for them :

 

- With a "M10" that allows liveview and, in case, a good accessory EVF there would be room for teles, macro and "odd" focals like 40 or 80, or Macro 100...

- IF they are so smart to make the prospected "CSC APS" in such a way that it gains a certain aura of excellence, this could me one more opportunity to build, in due time, a series of top-of-the-line lenses accordingly priced... , but if it will result to be too "normal" it will be difficult to play hard (in terms of price) on the lenses'side. [ ... ]

 

Luigi, this is exactly my thinking.

 

The old man from the Visoflex Age

[luigi bertolotti]

There is no such thing as "trivial GAS". Just ask Leica.

ok... let's call it "not insane GAS"...

[algrove]

ok... let's call it "not insane GAS"...

 

I wonder if all our GAS is the same? For example, I have noticed mine is stronger from time to time, probably from a buildup.

[algrove]

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ISO250 and 1/3000, says the Exif data. And no focusing magnifier. A standard exposure would have been 1/2000 at 1:5.6, but you can see tha there are no extensive shadow areas in the picture.

 

The old man from the 135mm Age

 

So you were bumping toward 1/4000 almost, so thinking Manual, you did not want to blow the facial skin I guess. It's well done for such strong, direct daylight. Did you have to do lots of fiddling with ACR before LR or PS?

 

I have been using the Gamut warning lately in PS just to make sure I am not forgetting about blowing highlights while optimizing various images. Of course. I should have been doing that from the get-go.

[lars_bergquist]

So you were bumping toward 1/4000 almost, so thinking Manual, you did not want to blow the facial skin I guess. It's well done for such strong, direct daylight. Did you have to do lots of fiddling with ACR before LR or PS?

.

 

Confession: That was an in-camera JPG. No post-fiddling at all.

 

The old Neanderthal from the Film Age

[lars_bergquist]

The question is: Exactly how much fine detail definition do you actually need?

 

I would say that any modern (or current) M lens will give you more than you can use. Let us make a quick test. Gentlemen, meet a Cadillac V16 Convertible Coupé from the Coolidge Presidency. The limits to uploading are a real limitation here, but let me tell you that in the original file, I can perfectly read every letter in the club emblems on the radiator. And then, the full frame. The cropped image's magnification would be equivalent to a meter-size print. Any problem with fuzziness? artifacts? (apart from the fact that any demosaiced, interpolated image is very much an artifact – but let's not go into deep philosophy here).

 

And what was the lens on my M9? It was not an Apo-Summicron. It was a v.2 Summilux-M 1:1.4/35mm ASPH, a lens with a slightly 'oldfashioned' fingerprint. And what shenanigans have I done to the file? None at all! The file is an in-camera JPEG, not modified in any way. It is simply correctly focused and correctly exposed. Period.

 

This good but not sensational workaday lens, and this extremely simple workflow, give me all I need. The fact is that current M lenses are very far into the territory of diminishing returns. It is probably proper that Leica M lenses should be there, but it is reasonable to go even deeper into it? Considering that the last one percent probably costs as much as the preceding ninety-nine? (I am thinking of the 50mm Apo-Summicron, of course.)

 

So now I have stuck my skinny old neck out. But be warned: I still cannot button the top button of a size 'Large' shirt. American size.

 

The old man from the Kodachrome Age, with habits to match

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[40mm f/2]

There are many lenses which have resolution better than the M9 sensor in the center of the image. Extending that resolution to the edges what is difficult and costly to achieve (see APO 50). For many images only the center resolution is essential. But other subjects like landscapes, architectural require the same image quality across the field.

[adan]

True, but stopping down current Leica lenses brings the corner resolution under control anyway.

 

I don't see much intersection for people who want sharp corners for landscapes - and also want to shoot landscapes at f/2.

 

It's important to remember that "APO" has a precise optical meaning. APO is NOT a generic term for "really good lens" - it specifically means "brings three colors into focus in the same plane."

 

I just saw a Top Gear episode in memory of the Saab marque, in which they mentioned that when Saab produced the first general-market sedan with a turbocharger (900), the word "Turbo" became a chic marketing label - there were "turbo" sunglasses and "turbo" toys.

 

Putting "APO" on a lens wider than 50mm would basically just be a marketing corruption of the term - those lenses already bring all the colors into focus in the same plane.

 

There are probably ways to improve even Leica's wide lenses - better close-focus with FLEs (as in the current 35 f/1.4) or with better lateral CA correction (sideways color fringes in the corners). But if they need a special designation, it should not be "APO" - but something related to the actual improvement (FLE or LCA).

[lars_bergquist]

There are many lenses which have resolution better than the M9 sensor in the center of the image. Extending that resolution to the edges what is difficult and costly to achieve (see APO 50). For many images only the center resolution is essential. But other subjects like landscapes, architectural require the same image quality across the field.

 

Copy work does require the same quality across the field. Plus zero distortion. I know, I've been into it. But the list stops here. The rest are not technical requirements but esthetic shibboleths, upheld by some, denied by others. It's all in your head.

 

Current M lenses are now so good in the definition department that this aspect has become boring. We can take it for granted. So maybe the 40lp/mm curve for tangential structures slips slightly below 50% out in the corners? Will that ruin your picture? Pictures are made by photographers, not by cameras or lenses. "Sharpness is the fetish of boring photographers."

 

Apple pie (with vanilla ice cream, thanks) is great. So another helping will be even greater, right? So a third one will be pure bliss, right? Wrong – it will mean an aching stomach. Long before that, a sound mind in a sound body will have started looking for something more interesting, like a cup of good coffee. Optical bulimia is a disease of the mind.

 

The old man thinking of morning coffee

[algrove]

Lars

I remember years ago having a very nice desert in the restaurant in the old opera house in Stockholm. It was done with very special wild berries you have up north in Sweden. Can't remember the name of the berry, but it was memorable and filling. Did I have vanilla ice dream with the desert? What was memorable was the berry not the topping which could have been creme fraiche.

[lars_bergquist]

Lars

I remember years ago having a very nice desert in the restaurant in the old opera house in Stockholm. It was done with very special wild berries you have up north in Sweden. Can't remember the name of the berry, but it was memorable and filling. Did I have vanilla ice dream with the desert? What was memorable was the berry not the topping which could have been creme fraiche.

 

If the berry confiture was yellowish, it was cloudberry. Yes, cloudberries are delicious especially served warm with vanilla icecream. The Finns make a liqueur from them, Lakka. Cloudberries grow wild on boggy land in north and central Sweden and nowadays, each summer a small army of Thai cloudberry pickers arrive to harvest them.

 

Did you eat in the upstairs or the downstairs restaurant? They, at least the one downstairs, have been in business since the turn of the previous century.

 

The old man from the Kodachrome Age

[Double Negative]

Hmm, cloudberries look similar to rasp/blackberries... If so, I'm already sold.

[bocaburger]

I'm still trying to elevate the compositional quality of my photography to the level of published work taken with film and lenses from 50+ years ago. Until I've got that in the bag, I'm not going to even think about elevating the MTF capability of my Leica lens arsenal, the cost of which presents a challenge of its own. I've lost my taste for Kool-aid...especially at $7K a glass

 

Matter of fact, I "downgraded" from ASPH to pre-ASPH several years ago with total satisfaction.

[algrove]

If the berry confiture was yellowish, it was cloudberry. Yes, cloudberries are delicious especially served warm with vanilla icecream. The Finns make a liqueur from them, Lakka. Cloudberries grow wild on boggy land in north and central Sweden and nowadays, each summer a small army of Thai cloudberry pickers arrive to harvest them.

 

Did you eat in the upstairs or the downstairs restaurant? They, at least the one downstairs, have been in business since the turn of the previous century.

 

The old man from the Kodachrome Age

 

Downstairs in the early 80's. Gorgeous ceiling frescos. That's right, cloudberries and I did have them with warm vanilla ice cream.

 

Seems as though we can't pick our own fruit or veggies here anymore and you bring in Thais to harvest cloudberries. Do many stay behind on an undocumented basis, like here or do you have better controls in place?

[lars_bergquist]

Algrove – Swedes like to go out in the woods and pick berries to take home and eat, or make into jam. I do. And the Right of Public Access gives us a right to do that.

 

The cloudberry operations are commercial, and do not attract local labour. The Labour Market Authority keeps an eye on the migrant workers to ensure that they are housed and paid decently. Few of them want to remain in this strange and cold country; they want to take their money home where it buys more and where their families live. The legal attitude towards non-EU immigrants is quite restrictive, and many people think overly so. But because of Sweden's geographical position we do not have the same 'leakage' of illegal immigrants as Greece and Italy and Spain has – and the U.S. along the Mexican border.

 

The absurdity of it is that countries like Spain, Italy and Germany have such low birthrates that they will go extinct unless they accept new residents and citizens from outside Europe, but they are very reluctant to do so. And the get more reluctant the more depressed their economies get – and the lower their birthrates go!

 

Moderator – this extracurricular activity is now concluded.

 

The old man from the Age Between the Wars

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[algrove]

I like to go out in the woods and shoot images with my APO lenses and also my non-APO lenses too. So far my abilities and camera bodies have not exceeded the capabilities of any Leica M lens I currently own and probably never will.

[pico]

There are many lenses which have resolution better than the M9 sensor in the center of the image. Extending that resolution to the edges what is difficult and costly to achieve (see APO 50). For many images only the center resolution is essential. But other subjects like landscapes, architectural require the same image quality across the field.

 

If the image is of such high stakes, then use something larger than 35mm format. Or not, and spend an inordinate amount of money, more money than you would for medium-format and still not do as well.