gogopix Posted June 27, 2012 Share #361 Posted June 27, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) From a theoretical POV, there would be more information in the MM than M9, simply because the filters cut out resp RB from G etc Lost phoitons and all that! However, in practical terms, most images are mostly B/W anyway (never see 5,5,200 say, likely 120,150, 180 for a color), that is, in a large component of images the level of ALL pixels are up in brighter sections, so ALL RGBs get the same info. An image laegely B/W will uniform stimulate the RGB, so even if there is extreme contrast, the R say in a brighter area will be high and a B will be low if that is darker. In a very saturated situation curiously the M9 may do poorer as the monochome will pick it up but if it is say a bright red, and the BG filters are there, they will make it look darker. just what we saw in film days, that is, we got up the contrast by filtering say yellows from cooler images and enhanced the contract for cooler (assuming the exposure compensated. SOooooooo, now to the test. I suggest two tests: one low saturation and one high let's see what happens. That said, 18MP is a LOT anyway, even 5 MP B/W at 8x10 can be quite sharp so BW <M9 conversion is fine for me. regards Victor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Hi gogopix, Take a look here Survey: Your opinion about the new LEICA M MONOCHROM. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mwilliamsphotography Posted July 1, 2012 Share #362 Posted July 1, 2012 Most of this is a moot point. When the camera gets into the hands of dedicated available light B&W shooters, we'll see what it can really do. Two things recommend the MM for those type shooters ... higher ISO performance and the whole mentality of shooting B&W as a separate discipline. For almost 30 years, I almost never shot any color film with a film M camera and even then it was Fuji Press. As such I came to think in B&W when I picked up the M, which for me was more difficult to do with the Digital Ms. In one case you are making the B&W decisions while shooting, in the other you make those decisions after the fact. Some can think B&W with a color camera, but I'd guess not many, and I sure haven't been all that successful at it. Color affects your reaction. I suppose you could turn off the LCD or something, but what is the point of that? Digital is different than B&W film ... digital is more like shooting B&W slide film, so the LCD review is helpful. In effect, most arguments are from color shooters that may do a certain amount of B&W conversions, verses those who shoot all or mostly B&W ... for whom this "speciality", non-mainstream camera is made IMO. My issues with the MM are more related to skimping on the LCD ... I'd like to see more of the tonal separation rather than trust it is there like I have to with the M9 for color/tonal separation ... whether the histogram can do that well enough remains to be seen by each user. Plus, I am sick of dealing with Leica diopters. I have aging eyes and my right shooting eye was injured years ago so my low-light vision is impaired ... I'd like a built-in diopter so I can switch eyes in lower light by readjusting the diopter in low available lighting ... LIKE I CAN WITH EVERY OTHER CAMERA I OWN ... from a point and shoot to my Sony A900s, to a S2 and H4D/60. I'll wait to see what the M10 brings, knowing full well it will not be a B&W dicipline camera and I may have to live with that unless they do a B&W version of that also : -) -Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted July 2, 2012 Share #363 Posted July 2, 2012 Marc- As for my eyes I got that Walter eye piece and it has helped immensely mainly due to the astigmatism, but also the power helps A LOT. If it's real dark, well what can we do, but use an MM for B&W. B&W-Sounds like you are not so keen from your post long ago when you worked on some MM images on your computer. I enjoyed that post. I have decided to try one. As a result I am now using my M9 with a DNG color and JPEG B&W so that the review LCD screen shows B&W only. Overgaard actually gave me the idea. It is helping me get back into B&W from years ago. Now that I have made this change I am seeing many B&W images at the time of exposure. Some I like so much I pay no attention to the color result even though I catalog all images. I grew up in Midland over 50 years ago. Guess you're not that far from the Tri-City area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_tribble Posted July 12, 2012 Share #364 Posted July 12, 2012 Plus, I am sick of dealing with Leica diopters. I have aging eyes and my right shooting eye was injured years ago so my low-light vision is impaired ... I'd like a built-in diopter so I can switch eyes in lower light by readjusting the diopter in low available lighting ... LIKE I CAN WITH EVERY OTHER CAMERA I OWN Couldn't agree more! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carl_valiquet Posted July 16, 2012 Share #365 Posted July 16, 2012 When I read rumors of a Black & White M ( not the color of the body), I decided to use my M9 in the black and white mode. It was a great exercise. It reminded me of the days I shot with the M6 and Tri-X. The M6 I still own. The problem is finding TRI-X film or Ilford or any other make of B&W here in Indonesia. In the past when I travelled with « analog» cameras, I usually carried two bodies. Black & white in one, color in the other. So in answer to the question of the survey. Yes I would (economics aside) purchase a «HENRI». I have a confession to make. At times while using the M9, I switched to the option «Raw and jpeg black and white)…just in case I would prefer the color image. My opinion is based on the feel and pleasure of using the rangefinder Leica and not on the technical rendering of the cameras. But for me, the M9 gives me a «je-ne sais-quoi» look to images. An almost film-like look, I dare say. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_dernie Posted July 20, 2012 Share #366 Posted July 20, 2012 I stopped taking B&W pictures as soon as I could afford colour film. I don't "see" in B&W and, apart from the darkroom magic watching the image appear on the print, have not much missed it since. I have mainly astigmatism as a sight defect, so an on camera eyesight correction lens can't be done for me. I used to shoot Velvia and Kodachrome, so 160 is -already- high ISO for me :-) I can't think of anything Leica could change on the M9 to make an M10 a must-buy. Maybe Leica will surprise me with something I haven't thought of, or it will be so inexpensive I might as well get one... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjames9142 Posted July 31, 2012 Share #367 Posted July 31, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have ordered an MM I can't really afford. For 30 years I was a B/W film shooter using formats up to 8x10 and most recently 120 film. When I got the M9, I found the colour absolutely seductive and the camera itself almost entirely intuitive -- I am committed enough to the system to have a backup body. I print up to 22 inches on an Epson 4900 -- a mature priece of technology that marries well with the M9, and more recently have been working with a small,serious lab to produce 36 in prints. I am curious as to the response when I exhibit them in the Fall. Al this time I have been unable to produce what I consider a really good BW print, in large part because I have not dedicated the time to figuring out all the many options. The MM will oblige me to do this. My printer is also keen to do comparison prints on the M9 and the MM to see what is really involved. However much we speculate, there is no substitute for a large print --it is what I stand or fall on. I will post results as soon as we have somthing. I think I am second on my local dealer's waiting list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2012 Share #368 Posted July 31, 2012 You are aware that Leica and Whitewall are offering a dedicated printing service for the Monochrome, Lambda technology I think. Leica gave me a print of one of Sobol's images by this service and it really looks good (a bit small for final judgement, A4) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiritShooter Posted August 1, 2012 Share #369 Posted August 1, 2012 I have ordered an MM I can't really afford. For 30 years I was a B/W film shooter using formats up to 8x10 and most recently 120 film. When I got the M9, I found the colour absolutely seductive and the camera itself almost entirely intuitive -- I am committed enough to the system to have a backup body. I print up to 22 inches on an Epson 4900 -- a mature priece of technology that marries well with the M9, and more recently have been working with a small,serious lab to produce 36 in prints. I am curious as to the response when I exhibit them in the Fall. Al this time I have been unable to produce what I consider a really good BW print, in large part because I have not dedicated the time to figuring out all the many options. The MM will oblige me to do this. My printer is also keen to do comparison prints on the M9 and the MM to see what is really involved. However much we speculate, there is no substitute for a large print --it is what I stand or fall on. I will post results as soon as we have somthing. I think I am second on my local dealer's waiting list. I made two very large prints for Jono Slack of his Bridge image. One, which I think was 54" on the long side printed on my Epson 9900 with Imageprint 9 on Epson Hot Press Natural is hanging on the wall in his house. The detail from the MM is absolutely incredible. Everyday I wake and hope that today is the day this camera arrives.....and each day I go to my office hoping that Leica doesn't delay the release. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebarnman Posted August 4, 2012 Share #370 Posted August 4, 2012 and each day I go to my office hoping that Leica doesn't delay the release. If they do, it will be worth it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmobile Posted August 6, 2012 Share #371 Posted August 6, 2012 One of the most celebrated Leica M photographers of the last 10 years gives his opinion. With all due respect to Jeff, who is a truly brilliant (documentary style) wedding photographer, a celebrated fine art/general documentary photographer he is not. His workflow is geared to producing the sort of colour and B&W work that is great for his needs, but it is a million miles short of many others'. His work revolves around wedding clients appreciating relatively small prints and the style of his work. As long as he produces a communicative B&W with great 'form and content' and 'good enough' technical delivery he is away, but he is not producing 30+" prints selling for $thousands in galleries. His technical requirements, in terms of resolution and tonality are in a different galaxy to someone selling individual prints for large amounts of money and where gallery presence is everything. If he were, and needed a small portable camera to carry for 8 hours a day, day in, day out for weeks on end, he might start to think that as niche and imperfect as the MM might be, it does fill a niche which at present it entirely empty (assuming the MM does produce significantly better very large B&W prints than the M9) Look at Jeff's landscape and fine art work. It is very much a product of the same creator as his wedding work. I can see why he does not see any point to the MM, but while my needs would mirror his when shooting a wedding, those needs dont get me near, never mind through, through the door with my other work. I am not sold on the MM yet, but do think that even if it only produces comparable technical performance to a D800E for B&W users, but in a smaller package, it is still saving me about 800g in my right hand for hours and hours and hours and... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent M10 Posted August 6, 2012 Share #372 Posted August 6, 2012 Does the MM not come with the sapphire screen? Looked for it on the website, but didn't see it mentioned anywhere. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
batmobile Posted August 6, 2012 Share #373 Posted August 6, 2012 it does have sapphire crystal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent M10 Posted August 7, 2012 Share #374 Posted August 7, 2012 Read this on The Click: So I heard it from a fly on the wall (actually a Leica rep told a reader this info) that the Leica M10, which is speculated by many to have a CMOS sensor (Stefan Daniel of Leica stated CMOS is the future), live view (Ditto), 24Mp sensor, EVF and or course HD video (strongly hinted at and suggested by Dr. Kaufman in May) and much improved high ISO performance, is 100% going to be announced at Photokina next month. If this is the case, I might consider canceling my order for the Monochrom. 18MP without color versus 24MP with color. I don't know that the marginal increase in sharpness with the MM (reviewers have estimated that 18MP without the Bayer array equals about 30MP) would be worth $8K. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted August 7, 2012 Share #375 Posted August 7, 2012 If this is the case, I might consider canceling my order for the Monochrom. 18 MP without color versus 24 MP with color. Did you think the M Monochrom was about sharpness? Then you better cancel the order immediately, because this camera is not for you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent M10 Posted August 8, 2012 Share #376 Posted August 8, 2012 Did you think the M Monochrom was about sharpness? Then you better cancel the order immediately, because this camera is not for you. Let's see, Leica's advertising literature says "With its full, native resolution of 18 megapixels, the Leica M Monochrom delivers 100 % sharper images than with color sensors." So I think sharpness is part of the buying equation. But, in any case, I think I'm through posting because of replies like this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atufte Posted August 8, 2012 Share #377 Posted August 8, 2012 Did you think the M Monochrom was about sharpness? Then you better cancel the order immediately, because this camera is not for you. What are you talking about...?? Have you seen M9 files compared with MM files, the MM are WAY sharper, because the lack of the bayer array filter, so to make things clear for you....some call this "sharpness" others call it added resolution/detail, whatever you prefer to call it, you can't ever deny that it's also way sharper, thus the poster you tried to flame was right, you were not... Cockiness wont get you anywhere... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted August 8, 2012 Share #378 Posted August 8, 2012 A monochrome sensor will always deliver sharper images compared to a sensor with a Bayer filter array, regardless of the pixel count of both. But I presume that pcsmythe actually meant resolution, not sharpness. The effective resolution of a monochrome sensor is roughly equivalent to twice the resolution of a CFA sensor with the same number of pixels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted August 9, 2012 Share #379 Posted August 9, 2012 What are you talking about? Huh!? Don't you understand what this whole thread with (currently) approx. 380 posts is about in the first place? I am talking about the reasons why someone would order a black-and-white-only digital camera. Have you seen M9 files compared with M Monochrom files ...? Sure I have. ... the M Monochrom's are WAY sharper, because the lack of the Bayer array filter ... Oh my Sure they are. But that's not the reason why someone will buy this camera. Or if someone foolishly does then he or she will be disappointed pretty soon and go for the next digital camera very quickly. This camera's raison d'être is not being sharper but being black-and-white. Getting more sharpness/resolution out of the given number of megapixels is a nice bonus but can never be the decisive purchase criterion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebarnman Posted August 9, 2012 Share #380 Posted August 9, 2012 Huh!? Getting more sharpness/resolution out of the given number of megapixels is a nice bonus but can never be the decisive purchase criterion. Why not? It's certainly that way for lenses. Why not cameras? Particularly to one who shoots mostly B&W. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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