ymc226 Posted March 2, 2012 Share #1 Posted March 2, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) Coming from a B&W wet printing background using film and fiber based prints is how I've come to appreciate silver based prints. I will start to convert color digital pictures to B&W and since I am new to digital completely, will use LR3 with Silver FX Pro2 and Alienskin's Exposures' 4 to process my photos. Printing will be done via an Epson 3880 onto glossy Hahnemuhle papers. I just found the Piezography website and want to ask for those who print mostly B&W, how do they find the quality of B&W prints done conventionally on the 3880 compared to a darkroom wet print or one printed via the K7 inks/QuadToneRIP using the Piezography system? I spoke with a representative and they recommended a separate dedicated printer (a 2nd 3880) for efficiency and ink savings. Pricing out the inks (4oz bottles) and cartridge system along with some paper amounted to an extra $1200 US dollars in addition to the printer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 2, 2012 Posted March 2, 2012 Hi ymc226, Take a look here B&W printing: Piezography?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest WPalank Posted March 3, 2012 Share #2 Posted March 3, 2012 Look into the RIP ImagePrint. Spectacular profiles with every paper out there. I have evaluated Piezohraphy images next to IP prints (done on an Epson with the new HDR inks) and could see no difference in quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted March 3, 2012 Share #3 Posted March 3, 2012 Have you tried printing using the Epson's AWB mode? If not I think that would be a good starting point. Given the choice of Pieziography or Imageprint I'd go for the latter 0 though Imageprint is expensive at $900 for your printer. Details here... Make Better Prints - ImagePrint If you haven't done so already I'd try AWB first, personally I've been very happy with the results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdriceman Posted March 3, 2012 Share #4 Posted March 3, 2012 Have you tried printing using the Epson's AWB mode? If not I think that would be a good starting point. Given the choice of Pieziography or Imageprint I'd go for the latter 0 though Imageprint is expensive at $900 for your printer. Details here... Make Better Prints - ImagePrint If you haven't done so already I'd try AWB first, personally I've been very happy with the results. I've been using Epson's AWB mode recently and have been very impressed. If you have the 3880 you should definitely try it before deciding to spend more money on another RIP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 3, 2012 Share #5 Posted March 3, 2012 Look into the RIP ImagePrint. Spectacular profiles with every paper out there. I have evaluated Piezohraphy images next to IP prints (done on an Epson with the new HDR inks) and could see no difference in quality. I've heard great things about ImagePrint. However, a good friend has some of the best equipment for custom profiling papers. I use his gear to create profiles on my Epson 3800 and have learned how to fine tune my workflow for some incredibly nice b/w prints (my standards are high after years of darkroom work and collecting vintage prints). Even so, if I give him a file to print on his dedicated Epson with Cone inks (picking the right image with a wide and subtle range of tones), my print is improved...subtly but noticeably. There just is no substitute for the difference 7 shades of grey ink makes compared to the 3 for Epson, assuming the image provides the range of tonalities to display the difference. As with anything in photography, though, nothing substitutes for expert technique. Two photographers using the same gear won't produce the same pics, nor the same prints. I'm constantly improving on my digital print workflow, and my friend is far more technically savvy than I. With his help, there always seem to be a few tweaks to bring out even more quality. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WPalank Posted March 4, 2012 Share #6 Posted March 4, 2012 JeffS, The 7 inks are better than 3 just doesn't suit me. IP gets in there and fools with the droplet array. Now to give you something to ponder. A simple question that I know the answer to that doesn't have an obvious answer, but a simple one. What color are the PK and MK inks on the Epson Printers? It's been the same for years. Hint: Run a quick Nozzle Check Print on your Epson Printer. Use cheap paper. Shouldn't take more than 3 minutes. Sorry if I don't get to your post right away, as I'm in transit at London/Heathrow, stuck with a bunch of tea drinkers whilst I drink my coffee black. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted March 4, 2012 Share #7 Posted March 4, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) We have a printer dedicated to Cone's B+W inksets where I teach. There is a difference. The inks are carbon inks and there will be no metamerism as you view the print in various light sources. That's the big drawback to printing B+W with color pigment inks. I would recommend dedicating one printer to B+W. It's a waste and very time consuming to switch inksets. If you feel you won't be printing any color for a while, then just try the Cone system for a while and then decide whether you'll want another printer. Printers are relatively cheap (as we know it's the consumables that are the true costs.) The only issue that I can foresee with Cone is support in the long term future (it's pretty much him and him only.) Although I think MIS also has a B+W system (not 100% sure about that.) btw, the value of ImagePrint (or any rip) are that the profiles are usually pretty decent out of the box and cover more material choices, and the ability for doing various layouts (especially if you're a production house and need to conserve paper.) But the screening using the Epson drivers is quite good. In terms of print quality the driver will produce equal results however the rips do facilitate having less overall production time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WPalank Posted March 4, 2012 Share #8 Posted March 4, 2012 We have a printer dedicated to Cone's B+W inksets where I teach. There is a difference. The inks are carbon inks and there will be no metamerism as you view the print in various light sources. That's the big drawback to printing B+W with color pigment I spray the prints with the Hahnemuhle (name escapes me) product after sufficient drying and have absolutely no metamerism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted March 4, 2012 Share #9 Posted March 4, 2012 Unfortunately there is no way to completely eliminate metamerism with these pigmented inks. But one can hope to change the spectral reflectance of the print and that's where the sprays come in. The degree of metamerism can try to be adjusted, and some of that also comes from the degree of metameric failure of the viewer (which is why some people notice shifts in certain light sources and not others, and some people are just less sensitive; human eyes only have three color receptors which is part of the 'problem.') But we still have to match to the light source, nonetheless. It's a tough issue and is only really resolved with the absence of color in the inks. And pigment ink is not easy to work with (dye inks are not as much an issue.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WPalank Posted March 4, 2012 Share #10 Posted March 4, 2012 Unfortunately there is no way to completely eliminate metamerism with these pigmented inks. But one can hope to change the spectral reflectance of the print and that's where the sprays come in. The degree of metamerism can try to be adjusted, and some of that also comes from the degree of metameric failure of the viewer (which is why some people notice shifts in certain light sources and not others, and some people are just less sensitive; human eyes only have three color receptors which is part of the 'problem.') But we still have to match to the light source, nonetheless. It's a tough issue and is only really resolved with the absence of color in the inks. And pigment ink is not easy to work with (dye inks are not as much an issue.) Sh#t, here we go with the science again. I am neither a bug or bird. There is no visible metamerism or bronzing and IP has profiles for different light sources. I have to do some prints for an upcoming gallery show, and would be happy to compare my IPs to your cones anytime if you find yourself in SF. Since you are now the expert can you pleas answer my earlier question to Jeff. Any Print Master should know it. What are the colors of Epson's Black Ink outof the cartridge? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted March 4, 2012 Share #11 Posted March 4, 2012 Sh#t, here we go with the science again. I am neither a bug or bird. There is no visible metamerism or bronzing and IP has profiles for different light sources. I have to do some prints for an upcoming gallery show, and would be happy to compare my IPs to your cones anytime if you find yourself in SF. Since you are now the expert can you pleas answer my earlier question to Jeff. Any Print Master should know it. What are the colors of Epson's Black Ink outof the cartridge? Sorry, it was simply a conversion of a phenomenon that everyone has to deal with. Painters, colorists, even car manufacturers. Why be defensive like this? It has nothing to do with you at all. What is this all of a sudden? A showdown at the OK Corral with our 'exhibition' prints or something? And did I ever say I "use Cones?" I simply said we have a printer dedicated to the inks where I teach. And that there is a difference (not better or worse, but a 'difference.') I was just adding some information for the person who asked about the inksets. The discussion is about carbon based inks versus pigmented inks and nothing else. I think both are great and both have their place. Epson's pigmented inks are encapsulated in resin and that affects their spectral reflectivity, hence the metamarism issues. That's why you said you use a spray. And I replied that it's one way of dealing with the issue. The spray will affect the reflectivity of the resin. There's nothing wrong with using it at all. Even IP knows all this which is why they have profiles for different light sources as you just now mentioned. The black ink from Epson is a pigment ink, the inks from Cone are carbon inks. So what? They're just different and are different products and different ways of approaching things. That's the only reason why I said "there is a difference" and also brought up the metamerism phenomenon with the Epson type of pigments in my very first post. Did I ever say "good versus bad?" Can't one just have a discussion and talk about various approaches and differing workflows without the piss and vinegar attitudes all the time? This isn't a boxing ring. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WPalank Posted March 4, 2012 Share #12 Posted March 4, 2012 Please retread your posts when referring to OK Corral. Me: I get no metamerism when... You: (Next post) IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to avoid metamerism....visual spectrum..... Me: I am not a bug or bird (some species of each have a much higher visual spectrum than a human) and therefore THIS human sees none. Before attacking me, Mr. Science, please retread your own POSTS. Jeez.... And BTW, the Epson Blacks are BROWN. My point is that many colors are obviously being mixed to create the different gradations between Black and Gray. Possibly more than 7 ink sets. All I know is Epson won't tell! Including why they are Brown. Longevity....? Anyone's guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted March 4, 2012 Share #13 Posted March 4, 2012 Please retread your posts when referring to OK Corral. Me: I get no metamerism when... You: (Next post) IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to avoid metamerism....visual spectrum..... Me: I am not a bug or bird (some species of each have a much higher visual spectrum than a human) and therefore THIS human sees none. Before attacking me, Mr. Science, please retread your own POSTS. Jeez.... And BTW, the Epson Blacks are BROWN. My point is that many colors are obviously being mixed to create the different gradations between Black and Gray. Possibly more than 7 ink sets. All I know is Epson won't tell! Including why they are Brown. Longevity....? Anyone's guess. Sorry but I never attacked you. I simply was discussing the phenomenon. And I never said the word "impossible." I said no way to completely eliminate metamerism. And that is true. Which is why it's being dealt with in numerous different approaches by various manufacturers, etc.. And when you now say "this human sees none" that is why I mentioned the metameric failure of the observer. It's not you specifically, it's just another common phenomenon that varies among all of us. And I'm not "Mr Science" this is all well known information and there are plenty of real experts out there. And yes, that's right. Epson is using color in their inks to produce B+W. And IP utilizes them differently than the Epson driver. But the issue of metamerism is light source and the type of pigment and resin coating that Epson uses, not simply the color. Carbon inks are simply a different way of getting to the same end product, a B+W print. And they aren't as difficult to deal with in respect to this phenomenon. And that's why I mention it as the difference. Press operators use shades of gray, black, and white and often with some yellow, cyan and light magenta for their B+W ink mixes. But it's a different ink of course. Even RA papers can exhibit metameric failure and often people will pick a particular known brand depending on the viewing light source, etc.. Which is why I only said it's a 'tough issue." But the Epson pigment inks have improved dramatically over the last decade concerning this phenomenon. I think they're really good, and so are HP's current ink formulas. Cheers. And again I'm sorry if you felt this discussion was personal and about your own prints. It was not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 4, 2012 Share #14 Posted March 4, 2012 To the OP. Print on your Epson system. Then talk to the folks at Cone and have them run the same print for you on their system, possibly with different papers. Your eyes are the ones that matter. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hug Posted March 28, 2012 Share #15 Posted March 28, 2012 I print on a 3880 using Quad Tone RIP and Cone K7 Selenium inks on Epson Exhibition Fiber Paper. The results exceed anything I used to do in a wet darkroom, even using the best papers I could find, selenium toned. Cone inks with QTR give creamy smooth high values and tremendous separation in the shadows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hlockwood Posted March 28, 2012 Share #16 Posted March 28, 2012 No one has said anything about longevity, so far. If longevity is not important, then that's a game changer. Harry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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