marco_rol Posted February 26, 2007 Share #61 Â Posted February 26, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sandy, the other issue is that while we may all "pay the same" for the equipment, pros tend to buy one helluva lot more of that equipment (I'm sure Guy alone accounts for the same number of purchases as 5 or 10 of us non-pros put together ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 26, 2007 Posted February 26, 2007 Hi marco_rol, Take a look here M8 v1.1. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest guy_mancuso Posted February 26, 2007 Share #62 Â Posted February 26, 2007 Hmmm many disgruntled replies here folks. I do understand some of it but the word defective is wrong and as a Pro I have been shooting with it professional for clients since a week after I got it in Novemeber so defective is not what i would describe because i am able to deliver images to clients. Incomplete maybe even than it still produces good files. I really think the word that best suits this is upgradable and that would be the best way I would say but the bugs and warts are nothing that no one else has on other systems , Unfortunetly folks this is normal in the industry , I may go along and say maybe a couple weeks released before it should have , so be it. Water under the bridge. Now the communication part , no company is going to keep telling you they have a issue constantly and just wait for this fix and than that fix. Your on the wrong planet to even think constant comunication on something bad they will report every 5 minutes. They would choke on the PR mess. I worked in a communications dept for 15 years if it ain't positive your not going to hear about it is the key words to live by. No company is going to say they screwed up on a constant basis , now Leica has admitted they made a design decision on the IR filter and how they handled it may have been a mistake and they would probably tell you that 10 years from now but frankly I think they were caught on there heels when it came up and everyone thinks it is so easy to say we screwed up but it is even harder to say we did but have a fix for it because the fix better be the answer other wise it maybe one of those bend over and you know the rest. i admit and totally understand the time issue on this stuff, you fix 5 things than something else shows up than have to fix that than 2 other things show up. This is HARD work and takes time and i am not even a engineer but realize this. Â Yes it is frustrating but if you sit down and take your feet and stick them in there shoes and remove the emotional ties than some understanding of what leica has to go through to make you the end users happy than it maybe clear what a task that isthere are more than a few handfull and all our issues maybe different. Many here have tkaen the proactive approach to the situation and i think that is ghreat and for the folks that are frustrated don't think for a second we don't understand that , we really do but you have to keep some prespective on how this all works in this industry as well as other industries. Yes more commications would be nice but until it is good news we may not hear from them agree or disagree with that is up to you. But i do talk to Leica and believe me we are being heard and they are working on it, i would never steer this forum wrong or blow hot air up your skirt it is my investment too and i have a helluva a lot to lose both professionally and financially. Â Sorry for the misspelling in a hurry to get back to a shoot Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 26, 2007 Share #63  Posted February 26, 2007 Carstein, So you are happy to accept any product produced by Leica no matter what. If the Sales Director of Leica has read these posts, no doubt you are by now on his Christmas card list.  As you seem to be getting slightly, and l emphasis slightly, personal .... has it not occured to you that when you launch a product, there should be no problems. If there are, expect some flak. whilst some of your market maybe happy to pay top dollar to be Beta testers, others may not be.  I earnt my £3,000 by providing to my clients a first class error free service ; when l spend that £3,000 l expect the same in return.  No worries about the name-spelling. I have done it too, and quite recently  You are of course right, there should be no problems. The keyword here is "should". The world is too complicated for this to be possible, these days. Look at all major recent camera releases. There were always issues. Expecting Leica to be above it all is not realistic.  You don't by any chance construct complex electronic equipment, do you? Pushing a button (and we are all taking pictures here, so I am not insulting you, but us all) is not even in the same order of magnitude as building a new camera from scratch, especially with tough backward compatibility requirements.  I am not happy to accept a Leica product no matter what. Upon discovering all the problems (I bought early November) I seriously considered backing out, but I made my choice to stick with it, and I have not regretted it. There are problems, yes, and I would love to hear more feedback from Leica, but I cannot be bothered letting it get me all upset. For every problem that exists, I can imagine perfectly reasonable reasons for it to be so. I am biding my time and making the best of it, simple as that.  I want to stress that I am not getting personal (in spite of the "attention" comment). I am strictly reacting to your choice of words. We do disagree on this issue, but at the end of the day, I'd be happy to go for a beer. We don't all have to agree all the time to get along. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbretteville Posted February 26, 2007 Share #64 Â Posted February 26, 2007 Enough with the wining about filers and discounts! Some of us are still waiting for the d**n camera. Now be good lads and lasses and get off your bums and use the M8s you've got for what it was intended! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
parigby Posted February 26, 2007 Share #65 Â Posted February 26, 2007 Carsten, Â Yes, l can live with most of what you say. I suppose mine is a mixture of frustration and irritation, not so much at the problems, but the way Leica chose to communicate with their clients, or not as the case maybe. Â Again l can see what Guy is saying, but Leica is supposed to be different. It hasn't acquired this loyal band of users by accident. They've acquired and retained them by doing something different. Â In respect of the remaining problems, it comes out with solutions, but then doesn't deliver. Or at least doesn't deliver within what to me is an acceptable time frame. I know all the software chappies are going to tell me l don't understand, and they are probably right, but l still don't see why the company can't periodically post on this site a progress report of sorts.I'm not suggesting one every week or so, but at appropriate times. Now would seem to be an ideal time, in that it appears to me, and l suspect others, that the end of February date is going to slide. That's OK. if l'm told and given some indication of why and a rough indication of the new expected date. Just something that would take some member of Leica's CRO two minutes to do. Â I can understand that people like Nikon and Canon wouldn't dream of doing that, but Leica is supposed to be different. Â From what l read, a not inconsequential number of users, and l am one of them, have tired of waiting for the filters and have gone out and bought from dealers. Now l have not moaned about that, l have chosen to seek an independant solution to the problem. All l now need are the lenses back from Solms duly coded so l can use the filters ! Â philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 26, 2007 Share #66 Â Posted February 26, 2007 Well, I am not so old (in this crowd at least: 41), so I have not been around to watch it for that long, but from what I can tell, Leica is not different in how perfect its products are the first time around, but how they back them and keep old equipment useful via compatibility and never-ending service. I am happy with that, even though I wish my M8 didn't have IR problems, and that the focusing was bang on already. Leica has been there for me so far, and I think this goes back in history. They listen, even if they don't do press releases. Actually, I kinda find that refreshing, in these times of many words and little action. I have bought two filters, and am waiting for another two. The rest I will buy and I will not complain, although I wasn't budgeting for this. I am trying to maximise my happiness, in an imperfect world, to be corny about it. Â The first round is on me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 26, 2007 Share #67 Â Posted February 26, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Phiilip echos my complaints exactly. I too have had to go out and scrounge trying to find filters because Leica has failed to deliver them. I know some of you don't care if the color is off or the image is softer than it would be with the filters due to IR contamination but I do. Therefore, I have spent the money, time and effort to make the camera work better (more like it should), is it too much to ask for a little communications in return? I don't think so. I really don't care what Canon or Nikon do, I didn't buy their camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedisdl Posted February 26, 2007 Share #68 Â Posted February 26, 2007 While it's true that we've only had a beta version (or incomplete if you will), it is still preferable to not having the M8 at all. I'd rather have it as is for shooting NOW. Even with the current issues, it comes closer to my shooting wish list than anything else out there. Â All cameras have their plusses and issues - the current M8 is no different - just perhaps more problems - but also more benefits - for me, the balance is quite positive. Â This is not to ignore the absolute lack of communications from Leica - in the long run that can cost them customer suppport. Â Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabrielma Posted February 26, 2007 Share #69  Posted February 26, 2007 What l can't understand is an almost universal acceptance of a defective product. It's almost as though Leica have done us a favour in releasing it in the first place.  Leica are taking huge advantage of it's loyal customer base  I say the use of a contraction in lieu of a possessive is indeed a defective product. Oh, the irony. People in glass houses... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted February 26, 2007 Share #70 Â Posted February 26, 2007 A camera with excessive infrared sensitivity is hardly an error of the same magnitude as a spelling mistake. Â Btw, "ascribe" means "attribute" or "impute". I would suggest "subscribe". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 27, 2007 Share #71 Â Posted February 27, 2007 I think the reason that the lack of communications is so bothersome is the fear that more is happening behind the scene in the Leica - Janoptiks dispute and that we might be left high and dry like the DMR with promissed releases that never materialized and then the product is discontinued. It makes me nervous and without any official word the anxiety increases, no disresepct meant, but having Guy or Sean say not to worry doesn't carry any official weight or obligation on Leica. Even MS announced when Vista would be late and when it would ship so it is possible to communicate both bad news and scheduled dates for a complex software product. I would like to think that Leica, as a company, is an order of magnitude above MS for which I have little respect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodyspedden Posted February 27, 2007 Share #72  Posted February 27, 2007 Phiilip echos my complaints exactly. I too have had to go out and scrounge trying to find filters because Leica has failed to deliver them. I know some of you don't care if the color is off or the image is softer than it would be with the filters due to IR contamination but I do. Therefore, I have spent the money, time and effort to make the camera work better (more like it should), is it too much to ask for a little communications in return? I don't think so. I really don't care what Canon or Nikon do, I didn't buy their camera.  Hey Barjohn  I feel your pain. I received my M8 on November 8th and have lived with the many problems but have also benefitted from the many wonders of this tiny machine.  But be fair. Leica has not failed to deliver (yet) on the filter commitment. They said February and February ain't over yet!!! Let's give them a break and hope the filters come super soon. On the other hand, if the delivery of the filters look anything like the delivery of firmware version 1.3 for the DMR then let's give em hell  Woody Spedden Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoteca Posted February 27, 2007 Share #73  Posted February 27, 2007 Carsten, Yes, l can live with most of what you say. I suppose mine is a mixture of frustration and irritation, not so much at the problems, but the way Leica chose to communicate with their clients, or not as the case maybe.  Again l can see what Guy is saying, but Leica is supposed to be different. It hasn't acquired this loyal band of users by accident. They've acquired and retained them by doing something different.  In respect of the remaining problems, it comes out with solutions, but then doesn't deliver. Or at least doesn't deliver within what to me is an acceptable time frame. I know all the software chappies are going to tell me l don't understand, and they are probably right, but l still don't see why the company can't periodically post on this site a progress report of sorts.I'm not suggesting one every week or so, but at appropriate times. Now would seem to be an ideal time, in that it appears to me, and l suspect others, that the end of February date is going to slide. That's OK. if l'm told and given some indication of why and a rough indication of the new expected date. Just something that would take some member of Leica's CRO two minutes to do.  I can understand that people like Nikon and Canon wouldn't dream of doing that, but Leica is supposed to be different.  From what l read, a not inconsequential number of users, and l am one of them, have tired of waiting for the filters and have gone out and bought from dealers. Now l have not moaned about that, l have chosen to seek an independant solution to the problem. All l now need are the lenses back from Solms duly coded so l can use the filters !  philip  Is that so really hard to understand? We are complaining difficulties and issues, having in our hand one of the best cameras. The factory is not dealing with us every day, okay. That's not right. That is, like if you try to fight with your wife at home every day, but she, knowing you for some time, refuses. From time to time, after some reflection, there will come a statement. Leica cannot (and should not) react on every nervously statement here. And after all: it is a small manufacturing firm. As I hear now, only the demand for lenses is far higher, than they ever can produce in a short time. Then there is still the lens-coding. Perhaps some camera to build. And the issue, to serve us with IR-filters was new and surprisingly for them. You have to consider, that some (and some of the best) things still have to be made. They are not falling from heaven. Always mourning, means, not having respect for time and craftsmenship. I have got my M8 now 3 months ago. I am still learning the camera and enjoy it with all this f........g magenta etc. I am not blind. But, considering the amount of problems we read and learnt about in this forum for example, 2 or 3 month are a very short time to react seriously. Some were solved quite quickly. Leica PR-dept. could surely work better, but after all, they came over with a quite generiously gift of 2 free and expensive filters, 30% advantage for next lens. Not so bad? So, after the first rumours we saw great pictures, the camera was accepted, people began to shoot and not only to cry and now shall start this complaining again, because filters or firmware will not arrive in the time that you determine???? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eronald Posted February 27, 2007 Share #74  Posted February 27, 2007 Hey Barjohn I feel your pain. I received my M8 on November 8th and have lived with the many problems but have also benefitted from the many wonders of this tiny machine.  But be fair. Leica has not failed to deliver (yet) on the filter commitment. They said February and February ain't over yet!!! Let's give them a break and hope the filters come super soon. On the other hand, if the delivery of the filters look anything like the delivery of firmware version 1.3 for the DMR then let's give em hell  Woody Spedden  I find the M8 works well with a filter and my profiles. One interesting thing is that AFAIK my profile seems to be accepted as the best present solution to the M8 color issues with filters, and I would have expected Leica to contact me about it, if only as a tester for their solution, but they didn't - so I assume they must have something better coming up.  Or not. On the one hand, if they have something better my M8 images will get better. If they don't then I'm going to have lots of new friends  Edmund Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicapfile Posted February 27, 2007 Share #75 Â Posted February 27, 2007 For those of you who delve into high end digital photography, I can only advise that you get used to it. There will continue to be "v.1 or 2 or 3.xxxs" as long as Leica supports the M8 which I suspect will be awhile. That will only change when the M8.2 or M9 comes out. At that time the number sequence will revert to a lesser value, then begin to climb again. Â Not their fault. ALL software is in continual development. Downloaded your latest Windows patch lately? It's the nature of the beast. Just take images with what you've got in the meantime. Â Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted February 27, 2007 Share #76 Â Posted February 27, 2007 I'm just glad digital cameras are capable of being updated by software. Hardware issues are so much worse. Of course, I also believe that any company that EOL's a product should open source the embedded software at the same time...did that happen with DMR? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradreiman Posted February 27, 2007 Share #77  Posted February 27, 2007 some people piss and moan about everything, some take life in stride. reminds me of that hated phrase i hear so much here in the states..."i'll sue them for that!". sounds like alot of misplaced anger floating around, or just bitter people...glass half empty types. try yoga or something for chrissakes. it may be trite but half the world is dying of aids or hunger or war and you guys are balling and whinging about a f'ing software update, probably stewing about it all day at the office. turn that frown upsidedownm shoot black n white for a while or go back to your 5d's. by the way to compare microsoft...  "Even MS announced when Vista would be late and when it would ship so it is possible to communicate both bad news and scheduled dates for a complex software product. I would like to think that Leica, as a company, is an order of magnitude above MS for which I have little respect. __ John  ...is hilarious!!! windows 95 came out in like 97 or something. and it sucked till the next one came out...way late, and the next one,etc...so-lighten up. go out and shoot.....b Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 27, 2007 Share #78  Posted February 27, 2007 some people piss and moan about everything, some take life in stride. reminds me of that hated phrase i hear so much here in the states..."i'll sue them for that!". sounds like alot of misplaced anger floating around, or just bitter people...glass half empty types. try yoga or something for chrissakes. it may be trite but half the world is dying of aids or hunger or war and you guys are balling and whinging about a f'ing software update, probably stewing about it all day at the office. turn that frown upsidedownm shoot black n white for a while or go back to your 5d's. by the way to compare microsoft... "Even MS announced when Vista would be late and when it would ship so it is possible to communicate both bad news and scheduled dates for a complex software product. I would like to think that Leica, as a company, is an order of magnitude above MS for which I have little respect. __ John  ...is hilarious!!! windows 95 came out in like 97 or something. and it sucked till the next one came out...way late, and the next one,etc...so-lighten up. go out and shoot.....b  Do you want Leica to have the same superb reputation earned by Microsoft? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted February 27, 2007 Share #79 Â Posted February 27, 2007 Do you want Leica to have the same superb reputation earned by Microsoft? Â I'm *positive* the M8 firmware and filters *won't* slip as long as Longhorn--oops! Vista did (years, and years, and years). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvaubel Posted February 27, 2007 Share #80 Â Posted February 27, 2007 Do you want Leica to have the same superb reputation earned by Microsoft? Â I'll bet Leica would be very, very pleased to earn profits in a year that Microsoft earns in one minute. Â Rex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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