Nikon D800E vs Leica S2

[wildlightphoto]

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Only complaint is range of lenses early on...

 

The adapter to use Hasselblad H lenses should help.

[sdai]

The adapter to use Hasselblad H lenses should help.

 

This is so funny ... all non-Leica lenses are supposed to be sub-standard coke cans, right?

[atanabe]

After reading all or most all of the impressions of the D800/D800E the #1 item is that the Nikon lenses do not have the resolution or special sparkle to make the sensor shine. The #1 solution is to adapt a Leica lens or use the Zeiss F series of lenses. This makes the Nikon D800 "system" a no go for me as the reason to buy into a "system" is for all of the feature set, fast AF, integrated components. I do not want or desire to step backwards to manual focus on a ultra fast AF camera body. Nor do I want to manually stop down the lens to the shooting aperture or squint to get focus with the lens stopped down.

 

So until Nikon comes up with a set of AF lenses that can handle the capabilities of the D800/D800E sensors I will respectfully sit on the sidelines.

[jedi996sps]

My apologies if this link has already been posted (did do a quick search), and i must state that i have no real interest in either camera, but here it is anyway, for those that are;

 

An unfair fight? 35mm vs Medium Format: Nikon D800E and the Leica S2-P – Ming Thein | Photographer

[stephan_w]

I got my D800E last week and started to make some comparisons with the S2. If the D800E is a hughe step forward for Nikon, it just cannot be compared to the S2. You need the best lenses from Nikon to bring the sensor to shine (I'm not sure at all if all the Zeiss are that good, i sold mine because of excessive purple fringing long time ago), even with some Leica-R-glas it cannot compete with the S2. It comes closer, of course. This said, the D800E is a nice camera, relatively compact, a complete system with a lot of lenses (not for the D800E, though), a complete flash-system, but for image quality alone, there is still a wide margin to the S-system. I wish anyone would made some real good AF-glas for Nikon, this would be highly apreciated.

[mwilliamsphotography]

I'd really like to do one of these comparisons myself someday.

 

I do not know if Ming owns a S2 or just had one for the test, but I never have the color cast issue displayed in his S2 images ... and I mean never. So, I have no clue why that cast happened. It is no small importance when comparing because it colors the results (pun intended ; -). Personally, I have found it more accurate to do a custom WB on all cameras being compared rather than use the same Kelvin ... then make side notes as to how accurate the various WB presets are on each camera.

 

The watch shot was done using off-camera speed-lights hand-held with the S2, and on a tripod with the D800. Unless Ming had the elusive CS lenses, it means he had to use 1/125 verses the 1/250 sync speed. Not valid IMO.

 

The only extensive test I've done involving the S2 was when I had a S2 on loan for 2 weeks to compare to my then Hasselblad H4D/40. At that time I gave the S2 a slight edge and attributed it to the all new S lenses. Other than acuity, the differences were aesthetic opinion based on taste and preference, and depended on which focal length was used from the Hasselblad line-up.

 

For that degree of resolution, I decided to move to the S2 because of the lenses, and almost as importantly for the form factor which I deemed more mobile. I then sold the H4D/40 and upgraded the Hasselblad system to a H4D/60 ... but only after extensively testing it against my H2F/39 Multi-Shot studio camera where I found the H4D/60 to be very close to the four shot 39 meg camera, lacking only in color fidelity for which Multi-Shot cameras are famous for ... but the H4D/60 did it in one shot as opposed to four and could be applied to more subjects.

 

I believe most photographers select Leica systems for the optics and image characteristics their lenses impart on our creative vision . It was true for the R system, the M system, and now the S system. This is no small point IMO. It isn't just how the lenses resolve, but how their over-all characteristics play to the subject matter ... in my case, the most important aspect is how people are rendered. I don't shoot still-life or buildings with a 35mm DSLR (or the S2 very much either ) ... I use the H4D/60 with TS/1.5, or the 60 back on a full movement Rollei Xact-2 with view camera lenses ... to which nothing from Nikon, Canon, Zeiss or Leica can compare. If I didn't own the gear, I'd rent it rather than using any 35mm, or even the S2.

 

So far, the only D800 images that have caught my eye are those shot with R optics ... further supporting my bias for the way Leica optics render. However, in no way will I trudge back to manual focus, especially with a tiny-tunnel viewfinder. I went through all that with a Canon 1DsMKIII and R optics, then a Nikon D3X and a full compliment of Zeiss lenses ... which BTW I bought hook, line and sinker due to the rave reviews .... only to be plagued with fringing and other limitations and irritations.

 

My 2¢

 

-Marc

[mwilliamsphotography]

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This is so funny ... all non-Leica lenses are supposed to be sub-standard coke cans, right?

 

Not true, Coke cans do not have glass : -)

 

I currently have a pretty full compliment of HC and HCD optics from Hasselblad that I will employ on the S2 as soon as I get the adapter.

 

Some of these Hasselblad lenses have their own characteristics, are different focal lengths not available in the S line-up, or do something the S counterpart focal length cannot do.

 

For example, I believe the HC100/2.2 will provide the same characteristics it has become famous for; the new HC50-II is a marked improvement over the previous HC50mm and is a stellar performer which closes the gap between the S35 and S70mm; The HC120-II Macro does what the S120 Macro cannot do ... 1:1 reproduction.

 

-Marc

[sdai]

The HC120-II Macro does what the S120 Macro cannot do ... 1:1 reproduction.

 

Good to learn from you about that, Marc ... I'm going to see what they'll have to show at Kina.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Back to the original title of this thread:

 

One problem I have with thinking about a Nikon AF camera verses a S2 AF camera ... I'd have to use Nikon lenses.

 

I've never been partial to the characteristic Nikon look and feel, including all the newer nano-coated versions. Nikon could make a killer 50 meg DSLR, and I'd still have the same problem.

 

Don't mind the Fuji lenses, learned to like them with the XPan. The Hasselblad/Fuji CS lenses aren't a bad stop-gap until Leica fleshes out the S lens line-up and gets the supply of CS lenses out there so I can upgrade my current 35, 70, 120 (no need for the 180).

 

-Marc

[Jamie Roberts]

I'm with Marc on this. I'm totally underwhelmed by Nikon lenses in the range I want: 24-135mm.

 

Nikon's teles might be better, but in the short time I used an S2, the "normal range" lenses blew me away. The few weddings I shot with an S2 (alongside an M9), I didn't miss my Nikon!

[CalArts 99]

fwiw, I have the latest AF-S Nikkor primes: 24mm 1.4, 35mm 1.4, and the 85mm 1.4.

 

I have them only because I have the D3s which in itself is only necessary because of specific situations and projects, etc..

 

There's no question that they are excellent and quite capable lenses. But they are far from being exciting lenses.

[PetersDreams]

Having both the S2 and the D800E, and compared them tripod mounted with the 120mm on the S2 and the 85mm 1.4G on the D800 for landscapes, all I can say is there is a little, little difference in sharpness to the advantage of the S2, but then the 120mm is slightly longer than the 85mm Nikon, but nothing to write home about. Personally I like the Leica lenses rendering more, but to say that the Nikon lenses (especially the newer ones) are not up to snuff for the D800E is simply not true and in terms of dynamic range, the D800E wins clearly.

 

Here a 200% crop from the Nikon 800E, 85mm 1.4G @ F5, ISO 100, 1/800 sec and a 200% crop from the Leica S2, 120mm Summarit, F5.6, ISO 160, 1/750 sec

 

Any guess, which is which?

 

Cheers

Peter

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[sdai]

Any guess, which is which?

 

I guess the one on top (or left ... my monitor is vertically oriented at the moment) is from the D800E.

[glenerrolrd]

Since I have the S2,m9 and D800E and the aforementioned lenses ..thought I might chime in with my experience. No question that the S2 establishes a IQ standard that exceeds both the D800E and the M9 .

 

To see the differences you need a subject that has a variety of colors and textures ..otherwise you can see the tone separation or color depth . Diglloyd has a nice test set up and you can see it on his blog . The MF aesthetic caused by the larger sensor , limited DOF and mid tone separation is not matched by any FF sensor . Resolution or the ability to resolve fine details is a different matter and here the D800E is close enough to the S2 ...especially if you tune your sharpening techniques in post processing . But this does t make a D800E an alternative to the S2 when overall IQ and aesthetics matter.

 

It maybe however be an alternative if your requirements include high ISO performance above 1250 ,faster capture capabilities or selective AF to name a few . In these areas it outperforms the s2 . You may also find that traveling with $50K of gear and no back up body somewhat inhibiting .even if cost isn t a factor.

 

I would also take exception to the generalization that the Nikon lenses are inherently inferior . The new G primes are exceptional lenses designed for use on modern (read that fast DSLR) . After capturing the moment .. a close number 2 is nail the focus and you can do this with a D800E more easily than with the S2 or for sure the M9 . If you shoot a lot and have excellent eye sight and reflexes ....it may not matter but its a consideration for most people .

 

Yes Nikon QC on lenses is lacking and you may have to sort thru a few and the 24-70 zoom is well a 24-70 zoom and not a Leica S prime . The older ..I mean 3 years ago lenses are a mixed bag ...the 400/2.8 VR and the 200/2 VR are exceptional but I am a lot less excited by the primes except for the 24/35/85 G and the zooms have their own issues ..they have many lenses in the line that aren’t up to the D800E . There are no bad S lenses ..but there are only 5 so far ,they are all quite large and expensive .

 

I have used the new Nikkor G primes ,the Zeiss Zf and the Leica R adapted to the D800E . I like each of the lens groups for different reasons . The R s produce the very best bokeh and a lovely rendering (great for a wedding ...no so much for sports ) . The Zeiss has superb image contrast and always look sharper than real life . The Nikon s are very sharp ,have a balanced contrast level that leaves shadows open and highlights intact and are IN FOCUS. They were designed for reportage and travel ..there are better alternatives for landscape or studio work.

 

The S2 sets the standard for IQ and pure aesthetics ..why I have it . Shoot any subject and it just looks better . But the D800E especially with the G primes has a range of capabilities that makes it valuable . If it fills a hole in your desired capabilities or more consistently meets requirements ..its a very nice system. What you like to photograph and the aesthetic you want to project makes a big difference in determining the equipment needs and desires .

[stephan_w]

Roger

 

this is the best summary so far I have read to the S2/D800E dispute.

 

I got my D800E two weeks ago and now had the time to compare it to the S2 mostly for portrait work and come exactly to the same conclusions as you.

 

For me, the D800E is a hughe concurrence to the M9, as it is relatively compact, versatile and with a stunning resolution. For studio and some other work it cannot beat the S2.

 

About the lenses missing in the S2 line up, I recently tried a hasselblad-lens (150) with pretty good results (a bit stopped down, though).

[mwilliamsphotography]

Roger

 

this is the best summary so far I have read to the S2/D800E dispute.

 

I got my D800E two weeks ago and now had the time to compare it to the S2 mostly for portrait work and come exactly to the same conclusions as you.

 

For me, the D800E is a hughe concurrence to the M9, as it is relatively compact, versatile and with a stunning resolution. For studio and some other work it cannot beat the S2.

 

About the lenses missing in the S2 line up, I recently tried a hasselblad-lens (150) with pretty good results (a bit stopped down, though).

 

Which HC 150mm?

[stephan_w]

Which HC 150mm?

 

First version. I only learned later that there is a VII that should be better, but to be honest, I'm happy with the 150 V1. I will resell both Hasselblad lenses (150 + 100) once a Summicron 100 may be available :-)

 

I want to add some more experiences in the comparison D800E and S2:

 

A week ago I was on an extensive fashion-shooting in south of France, and for security reasons (holiday-time) I just took the D800E for the shooting, mostly with the 70-200 VRII, but some also with the 50/1.8, a lens that I apreciate much on this camera. We were shooting early morning on the beach, but also in hard sunlight and some evening shots.

 

My overall statement is the follwowing: Some of the pictures are a bit soft, due to fokus errors (or maybe VR?). To get a similar bokeh as with the S2, you have to go to longer focal lenghs, which means shorter shutter speed which means higher ISO which means reduced image quality (yes high isos are nice with the D800 but still high ISO).

 

The D800E leads to some other errors during the shootings, especially manipulating on some buttons (I hate those AF-ON-OFF buttons on the lenses, as well as the choice of AF-points on the battery pack, as well as the new AFS-AFC selection button), all in all a source of trouble. The S2 is a far more precise and simple tool.

 

On the other hand, we had a fast moving model on location, that would have been a pain to photograph with the S2.

 

All in all I wouldn't reduce the choice of a camera system to the quality of lenses. As far as I'm concerned, it is rare that I shoot brick walls or churches or libraries (I actually do a lot of fashion). The actual Nikon lenses are not that bad as reported, some modern lenses do quite a good job and offer a very nice bokeh. When you get it right, the D800E brings impressive resolution, even better when you nail the focus. But to be honest, for a serious job I wouldn't take it.

 

In such a comparison, I would also consider what the photographer can do with a camera. The photographer himself is a limiting factor in the chain as well. For me the bright viewfinder of the S2 was the decisive argument when buying. Also to have only one AF-point and to know exactly where this point is, is important to me. I hate it when the fokus is just a few cm from the place where it should be. This is a disaster for portraits.

 

All this said, I love my S2 even more after extensive use of the D800E, but I have to agree that for some shootings the D800 will make the job as well (especially in dim light). And i imagine that for other purposes (especially wildlife), the D800 might be unsurpassed.

 

Just another point regarding a possible price-drop of the S2: I must say that as a longtime Nikon user, I was a bit kind of pissed off about the anouncement of the D800. As owner of a D3x, it is almost impossible to sell it now for a fair price after the arrival of the D800. In former times, it was easily possible for example to resell a D2x to some serious amateurs. Actually, with the arrival of the new camera generation, almost nobody will pay a premium for a real pro-body. But in direct comparison, the D3x still delivers outstanding quality. I hope that someday we just stop this frency to get the "always better camera".

[Messsucherkamera]

I'd say a lot of big differences, for example:

- S lenses (not as many choices as Nikon but outstanding IQ)

- Sensor size (Nikon smaller and more modern)

- Price

 

Given the choice for IQ, the S2, always.

General purpose: D800.

 

Here's another similar thread:

 

it will be super interesting to see Nikon D800 VS Leica S2 - The GetDPI Photography Forums

Hmmm... I wonder how either one would stack up against an 8x10 view camera?

[peterv]

I guess for IQ and 'look' most would agree that the 8x10 view camera would be the winner, for general purpose, not so much

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[Messsucherkamera]

Today a good friend of mine yet again sang the praises of his D800 (as he does every freaking time I see him) . This friend made the claim that the D800 produces "higher quality images than an 8x10 view camera" (his words) .

 

If this guy were just some Nikon fanboy/doofus, he and his claims about the D800 would be easily dismissed - but he's not. He owns & runs a very successful commercial photography studio, can barely keep up with the demands for his services and is one of the best photographers in the area. The guy is the real deal - so I can't dismiss him as a blind Nikon moonie.

 

To say that he is enamored with all things digital would be the understatement of the decade. He thinks my commitment to rangefinder photography and the Leica M system is a lot of nonsense. He is of the opinion that I would be light years ahead if I were to dump my Leica M kit in favor of a pair of D800 bodies to use with my Nikon lenses.

 

In the end, it is my call alone whether I stick with my M film cameras (which I 'm 99% sure I will choose to do) or dump them in favor of D800 bodies.

 

My question is this: Is my friend right about the D800 image quality? Could it really be "better than an 8x10 view camera?" To be honest, that claim seems to be a bit farfetched.

 

His claim also makes me wonder how the image quality of high end film cameras and lenses such as Leica's current M lenses and Hasselblad V system (Zeiss T* lenses) would stack up against the D800 and Nikon's pro lenses.

 

Any insight or information would be appreciated.