thomas_schertel Posted January 8, 2012 Share #21 Posted January 8, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) i owned a cm zoom. It is a nice camera (the cm too, i presume). But it does not work and it cannot be repaired, neither by leica, nore by somebody else. So I would take one of the M-cameras in good working order from a shop, which gives you warranty. I own a cl too, with both fitting lenses (I bought it last year in Berlin for 699 €). The quality aof the images is excellent, but it sounds more like tin, than other M-cameras. The main restrictions are not the missing framelines. One can buy an old VIOOH or IMARECT Viewfinder. But the rangefinder is not accurate enough for high speed lenses and lenses above 90 mm. Faster lenses cover much of the viewfinder. But if you look for a small leica, the cl is a good choice. yours sincerely Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 8, 2012 Posted January 8, 2012 Hi thomas_schertel, Take a look here The best choice of camera for 500€. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
thomas_schertel Posted January 8, 2012 Share #22 Posted January 8, 2012 i would always buy a body or a lens from somebody, where i can take it in my hands and test it. Are the glasses clear, does the helicoid ("Einstellschnecke") and the diaphragma work smooth, are the times, especially the long times working and sounding well (not slightly interrupted), what about the self - timer, Try the winding lever, whether you need not too much force .... The dealer should give you enough time of warranty, so that you are able to expose some rolls of film. I would not buy a old camera via internet. You also should think about a screwmount camera. They often are not expensive. The Elmar performs well. But LTM cameras, lenses and accessoires can be like drugs. Yours sincerely Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas_schertel Posted January 8, 2012 Share #23 Posted January 8, 2012 This helps more than I could have imagined! Thank you so much (fellow dutchie). I will take my time and virtually visit all these dealers you mentioned and see what I can come up with. So its definitely (probably ) going to be an M2, M3 or M4 depending on what's offered. They are all full frame correct? I do appreciate a 35mm more than 50mm but I wouldn't pass on a good deal when I see it. The M 3 has frames for 50, 90 and 135 mm-lenses. To use 35-mm-lenses, you need either an acessory viewfinder or special lenses with goggles (they work with all M-cameras, showing the frame for 50 mm). Look here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.de/index.php/Datei:Sur_m3.jpg The M 2 has frames for 35, 50 and 90 mm. The M4 shows 35, 50, 90 and 135 mm. The M5 is a nice camera with metering through the lens. It shows frames for 35, 50, 90, 135 mm. The M4-P shows 28, 35, 50, 75, 90, 135 mm, also the M 6, M7 and MP (new) yours sincerely Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messsucherkamera Posted January 9, 2012 Share #24 Posted January 9, 2012 Ignore cosmetics and get one that looks used provided the internals and optics are working OK. You'll save lots that way. One thing though - - I ordered my M3 from Tamarkin in the US (great service) and therefore had to pay the Dutch customs, which added 19% plus a 3,7% import fee (which I was prepared for). So you have to factor that into the equation, unless you're lucky - which one can be - that the parcel goes through unchecked (if you buy from a private seller you might be more lucky with the customs but naturally I don't advise to fool the system by erroneous contents declarations - plus you don't get a warranty then, of course). You won't run this risk within the EU. <snip> If I were to choose between M3 and M2/M4, it'd be the M3. True, it lacks 35mm framelines but there are goggled lenses that sort that out which weigh the same as non-goggled ones and have the same quality. Plus you'll have an extraordinary viewfinder at all other times. You can get a much cheaper body if you go for the Barnacks. They're great fun to use and look truly cool. Plus they're smaller than the M. Red Dot Camera in the UK often has lots of options, usually beginning at about £200, and offer quick service (I've bought lenses from them). <snip> Screw mount lenses are inexpensive and work with both Barnacks and M (with an adapter). Consider a clean Summitar 50 or an Elmar 50. I'm very happy with my Summitar and at f2 it is very useful. Hope it helps some Philip Good advice (above). Look for a cosmetically challenged but mechanically sound M4-P would be my advice. These are great M cameras and they do have 35mm bright lines; 28mm lines, too but no built in meter. As for the M3, if you go that route and want 35mm lines, Sherry Krauter can do an MP viewfinder upgrade down the road as your budget permits. If you shop for an ugly duckling M body and a vintage lens, you should be able to get a starter Leica M with a minimum of financial bloodletting. The Barnak cameras are an option too if you can get by without the features the M cameras offer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimiepeeters Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share #25 Posted January 9, 2012 Hope it helps some Philip I'm having a hard time finding these times in the swedish online stores.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimiepeeters Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share #26 Posted January 9, 2012 The M 3 has frames for 50, 90 and 135 mm-lenses. To use 35-mm-lenses, you need either an acessory viewfinder or special lenses with goggles (they work with all M-cameras, showing the frame for 50 mm). Look here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.de/index.php/Datei:Sur_m3.jpgThe M 2 has frames for 35, 50 and 90 mm. The M4 shows 35, 50, 90 and 135 mm. The M5 is a nice camera with metering through the lens. It shows frames for 35, 50, 90, 135 mm. The M4-P shows 28, 35, 50, 75, 90, 135 mm, also the M 6, M7 and MP (new) yours sincerely Thomas I always thought that with film camera's the frame size was also the sensor size (as it is with digital. But you're talking about frame lines on the viewfinder... this has gotten me confused. I believe I need to do some research on this matter). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted January 9, 2012 Share #27 Posted January 9, 2012 Advertisement (gone after registration) The Leica M viewfinder is a constant. It does not change its field of view when you change lenses. The field of view of the lens in use is represented in the viewfinder by framelines which correspond to the lens in use. The appropriate set of framelines are brought up by a mechanical linkage keyed to the lens in use. A lever on the body allows you to manually override and bring up different framelines to the ones in use. Other posters have already explained which framelines are in which bodies. The advantage of the Leica approach is that you can see what is happening outside the framelines and thus anticipate better. Hope this helps, Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpattison Posted January 9, 2012 Share #28 Posted January 9, 2012 Frames are shown in the viewfinder to give you an idea of the area the particular lens will cover. A combination of (usually) two can be displayed, and other pairs are displayed by either 1) fitting a different lens, or 2) moving the selector lever on the front of an M body. There have been a few "half frame" cameras, but all Leica rangefinders take full 36mm x 24mm exposures on 35mm film. The reference to "full frame" that you are confused with, is a term used to differentiate the relative sizes of digital sensors compared to this size of of the 35mm standard film exposed to the light during an exposure. Leica M Guide Leica Viewfinder & Rangefinders The best thing for you is to visit a camera store with second hand Leicas and play with a few. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimiepeeters Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share #29 Posted January 9, 2012 This has again been so helpful. I'm all up to speed on the frameline concept now! So to narrow it down. Right now I'm looking at 1. M2 2. M3 3. M4-P 4. CL the CL is available for the same amount of money as the prior 3 options including lens. Though some have mentioned here that I could start with a relatively inexpensive lens and upgrade down the road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted January 9, 2012 Share #30 Posted January 9, 2012 I'm having a hard time finding these times in the swedish online stores.. Do you mean the links don't work? I just tried them here at work and the pages load. Here they are again: Schönherrs Foto Wibergs Foto L.Foto Let me know Cheers Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimiepeeters Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share #31 Posted January 9, 2012 Do you mean the links don't work? I just tried them here at work and the pages load. Here they are again: Schönherrs Foto Wibergs Foto L.Foto Let me know Cheers Philip no they work, but for some reason I have trouble finding the offers on the M camera's... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted January 9, 2012 Share #32 Posted January 9, 2012 Ah, I see. Does this help? The order of the images is Schönherrs, Wibergs, L-Foto (I included a few more cameras on the L-Foto images because he has quite a few). Let me know if I misunderstood you or if I can help you further cheers Philip Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/170074-the-best-choice-of-camera-for-500%E2%82%AC/?do=findComment&comment=1893206'>More sharing options...
Jaimiepeeters Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share #33 Posted January 9, 2012 Ah, I see. Does this help? The order of the images is Schönherrs, Wibergs, L-Foto (I included a few more cameras on the L-Foto images because he has quite a few). Let me know if I misunderstood you or if I can help you further cheers Philip awesome! so I'm seeing an M4 body and a 50mm lens for 6.900 SEK correct? This would be 782 euro Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeverettfine Posted January 9, 2012 Share #34 Posted January 9, 2012 I always thought that with film camera's the frame size was also the sensor size (as it is with digital. But you're talking about frame lines on the viewfinder... this has gotten me confused. I believe I need to do some research on this matter). The viewfinder on a Leica rangefinder is of one constant size. Different framelines appear as you mount different lenses. These framelines match the angle of view of the lens and show what will be exposed on the film. You won't be confused when you get your camera as it is all done automatically. You will always get a "full frame" image on the film. One of the great things about a Leica rangefinder is it has a little frame line selector lever that can allow you to "preview" the different framelines to decide which lens to use. Precision Camera here in Austin has (right now) a nice user condition M2 priced at $499 US. (512) 467-7676 www.precision-camera.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 9, 2012 Share #35 Posted January 9, 2012 Seems you have 10 cameras, with 2 new ones on the way even before the M purchase. If you purchase the M, I hope that you'll put down everything else for a bit and dedicate time for the M. Then decide if you like the M (and rangefinder) experience; some do, some don't. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimiepeeters Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share #36 Posted January 9, 2012 Seems you have 10 cameras, with 2 new ones on the way even before the M purchase. If you purchase the M, I hope that you'll put down everything else for a bit and dedicate time for the M. Then decide if you like the M (and rangefinder) experience; some do, some don't. Jeff I am definitely selling the Minilux (and T4 if needed) to buy the M. Also will I be trying to sell the N90 and F90x, but wont sell the F4 as I believe its a piece of history that I would like to treasure, same as the Canonet QL17. I have had the Yashica T4 with me every single day... so the M will take its place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimiepeeters Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share #37 Posted January 9, 2012 The viewfinder on a Leica rangefinder is of one constant size. Different framelines appear as you mount different lenses. These framelines match the angle of view of the lens and show what will be exposed on the film. You won't be confused when you get your camera as it is all done automatically. You will always get a "full frame" image on the film.One of the great things about a Leica rangefinder is it has a little frame line selector lever that can allow you to "preview" the different framelines to decide which lens to use. Precision Camera here in Austin has (right now) a nice user condition M2 priced at $499 US. (512) 467-7676 www.precision-camera.com Can't find it on their site... Keep in mind that I would have to pay tax on top of that for customs to Netherlands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted January 9, 2012 Share #38 Posted January 9, 2012 Get your M body and whatever lens you can find/afford. You could look at some alternative bodies like a Voigtlander, but the feel of a classic M is rather special - hard to explain. If funds are really tight buy a Jupiter 8. I have one and it's a perfectly fine lens for silly money. An LTM 5cm 3.5 Elmar (also available in M mount for usually a little more money) is a superb lens, and makes for a great compact kit. If you would like a 35mm Summicron, the cheaper option is a Skopar. In most cases you'd struggle to tell which was which in final typical size print form. IMHO of course! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpattison Posted January 10, 2012 Share #39 Posted January 10, 2012 Did anyone notice the add for an M2 on #32 ? It said 1963 TWO STROKE Could it be an M3 upgraded to M2 without changing the wind on, or did any MPs come with two stroke winds? A rare, lost experiment, maybe or just a typo? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeverettfine Posted January 10, 2012 Share #40 Posted January 10, 2012 Can't find it on their site... Keep in mind that I would have to pay tax on top of that for customs to Netherlands. No, they don't post used gear on their site. You need to send an email inquiry or call. They are great people to deal with. I have known the owner and purchased equipment from them for more than 30 years. J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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