Tilting head flash for M8? Metz response

[grober]

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I'm sure the Leica SF 24D is a fine unit but it's lack of a simple tilting head makes it completely unsuitable for me personnally.

 

My correspondence with Metz on the need for a tilting flash unit able to tap the native intelligence of the M7 and M8 cameras BUT physically more compact than their current line brought the following e-mail response this morning:

 

"The smallest flash unit suitable for a Leica M8 used in GNC flash mode with tilt reflector is called a 44 MZ-2. Smaller flash units with same features are not provided and, unfortunately, not in planning."

 

Anyone know any other manufacturer that might embrace the same SCA "standard" that Leica requiries for full flash functionality with the M7 or M8?

 

-g

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[cme4brain]

I'm sure the Leica SF 24D is a fine unit but it's lack of a simple tilting head makes it completely unsuitable for me personnally.

 

My correspondence with Metz on the need for a tilting flash unit able to tap the native intelligence of the M7 and M8 cameras BUT physically more compact than their current line brought the following e-mail response this morning:

 

"The smallest flash unit suitable for a Leica M8 used in GNC flash mode with tilt reflector is called a 44 MZ-2. Smaller flash units with same features are not provided and, unfortunately, not in planning."

 

Anyone know any other manufacturer that might embrace the same SCA "standard" that Leica requiries for full flash functionality with the M7 or M8?

 

-g

 

I know of no flash manufacturer that will make a low-volume adapter for the Leica, but then again I do not have my finger on the pulse of the flash industry. I have a Leica 24D but I note the limitations of low power and no bounce head. Clearly, Leica views flash photography as an afterthought, much like Merecedes feels about cupholders. For bounce flash or a more powerful one, I use a Metz 40MZ-3i which has full communication of ISO and lens focal length to the flash, but will not have TTL.

[wparsonsgisnet]

JW, I use the Metz 54 and find it very powerful and not too big (altho many do find it too big). I figure you know the following, but am posting for general use.

 

With regard to the Metz response, GNC works with pre-flash. Because cameras with digital sensors don't offer ttl, the GNC method has arison for automatic control of the flash by the camera.

 

GNC works by using a small pre-flash, which the camera evaluates. The camera then generates a controlled flash for picture-tatking purposes based on the pre-flash evaluation.

 

This works very well in terms of getting the flash amount correct. What I find destructive to portrait work is that the subject(s) see the first flash and think the picture is over. They then become uninteresting to photograph and the second flash -- accompanied by an image capture -- makes the picture at that time.

 

I prefer the automatic setting on the Metz. This required telling the strobe what iso and aperture you are using. I set to 1/250 on the M8 and go to town.

 

The Metz units have an emormous amount of power. Very satisfying.

 

Also, the information from Metz is a little disappointing in that there was a posting here some weeks ago suggesting that Metz was making a new, Leica-branded flash unit. Too bad.

[masjah]

Also, the information from Metz is a little disappointing in that there was a posting here some weeks ago suggesting that Metz was making a new, Leica-branded flash unit. Too bad.

 

Bill

 

It's still possible that this is the case. If it is indeed a Leica-branded flash, then Metz would not themselves announce it - that would have to be down to Leica. Metz themselves would surely be bound by commercial confidentiality.

[wparsonsgisnet]

Bill

 

It's still possible that this is the case. If it is indeed a Leica-branded flash, then Metz would not themselves announce it - that would have to be down to Leica. Metz themselves would surely be bound by commercial confidentiality.

 

John, I have the same expectations, but going from the quote in the original post:

 

"unfortunately, not in planning"

 

by the Metz guy, if they're not doing something with Leica, then this statement is misleading to some degree.

 

I don't know about German companies; in the US, sales guys can hardly wait to say something is coming -- even if it isn't.

[sps]

Bill,

 

Have you tried to use fill-flash in GNC mode? I'm curious if you can do it or must set to auto or manual.

 

Also, it appears that the 54 you own is slightly smaller (physically) than the 44 that Metz recommeded, albeit slightly heavier. Is there another Metz unit you were referring to when you said that your's is too big for some?

 

Thanks.

[hdrmd]

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The Metz 44MZ-2 is not so awfully large, and it works well TTL. The problem I have with it is that although the head tilts, it does not swivel. several of the soft boxes, such as Fong and Lumiquest work well with the Metz, except it would be better if the unit swivwlled for verticals. DR

[wparsonsgisnet]

Sevvas, I have only used the 54. Several posters in the past have complained about the size of this strobe, but I find it just fine.

 

I like the power, the features, and after a whole lot of years finally managed the price (including battery stuff).

 

I have not tried fill-in flash yet and look forward to learning this trick.

[sps]

Sevvas, I have only used the 54. Several posters in the past have complained about the size of this strobe, but I find it just fine.

 

I like the power, the features, and after a whole lot of years finally managed the price (including battery stuff).

 

I have not tried fill-in flash yet and look forward to learning this trick.

 

Bill,

 

I'm going to try and find a used one and give it a whirl. Thanks for the info.

[mwilliamsphotography]

I've used a M camera, now including the M8 with the SF20 and now SF24D for years of shooting wedding photography... but never as the main source of light ... Ms can be shot at low shutter speeds manually with the flash on TTL to achieve enough fill to do the job in almost any lighting circumstance.

 

I secured a number of Lutz's S-Fills ( diffusers) for the SF flashes (since not available), and learned to position the flash to fill on the opposite side of the prevailing available light when shooting in the portrait orientation.

 

The objective is to use flash in a manner that is difficult to detect, thus preserving the available light look ... which is also my objective with any camera and flash.

[lars_bergquist]

The problem could be largely solved by a system shoe-to-foot cord. That way we could get TTL bounce hand-held. It is simply incomprehensible to me why such a simple and natural accessory does not exist. This is for the moment the most glaring deficiency in the whole M8 program. If Metz won't see the light, then exactly what prevents Leica Camera from having some other manufacturer supply it? Rabid company lawyers? They are of course even thicker on the ground in Germany than in the U.S.A. Garlic and silver bullets are traditional remedies.

 

The old man from the Age of the P/C Plug

[toke]

Nikon SC-17 cable. I used it between SF-20 and M6TTL a lot!!!

[Albert4321]

In B&H site, the spec for Metz 54MZ-4 said "Wireless full TTL triggering", how do this work?

 

Also, what is the difference between Metz SCA 3008 A Off-Camera TTL Extension Cord and the Nikon cable?

 

Thanks,

[wparsonsgisnet]

In B&H site, the spec for Metz 54MZ-4 said "Wireless full TTL triggering", how do this work?

 

Also, what is the difference between Metz SCA 3008 A Off-Camera TTL Extension Cord and the Nikon cable?

 

Thanks,

 

Albert, I have the 3008. It consists of a replacement for the adapter on the strobe, a heavy, coiled cable, and a piece with a sensor that fits on the camera -- and uses the adapter that came off the strobe.

 

It does provide off-camera flash. The cable that is heavy and coiled isn't long enuf for me.

 

With regard to ttl, you can have ttl on the M6-ttl or the M7, but not on the M8. TTL is provided by reading the intensity of the flash returning from the subject -- as it is reflected from the film in the camera. This is neat, of course. However, light doen't bounce this way from a digital sensor -- so NO ttl on the M8.

 

TTL functionality is "replaced" by DNG. In this mode, the M8 causes the strobe to issue a smaller flash and measures the intensity of the light. Then, the M8 has the strobe issue the flash that will be correct for the picture to be taken.

 

This works just fine with the Metz 54, with the attendant problems of pre-flash. I don't use this for animate objects because the subjects see the pre-flash and think I took the picture. Then, while the M8 IS taking the picture, they are doing something else.

 

Using the Metz in automatic solves this problem.

 

As regards the "wireless" functionality, there is another adapter that does this. I have not been able to source this hardware. In any case, you're not going to get ttl with the M8.

[Albert4321]

Thanks Bill for the detail explainations.

[woodyspedden]

JW, I use the Metz 54 and find it very powerful and not too big (altho many do find it too big). I figure you know the following, but am posting for general use.

 

With regard to the Metz response, GNC works with pre-flash. Because cameras with digital sensors don't offer ttl, the GNC method has arison for automatic control of the flash by the camera.

 

GNC works by using a small pre-flash, which the camera evaluates. The camera then generates a controlled flash for picture-tatking purposes based on the pre-flash evaluation.

 

This works very well in terms of getting the flash amount correct. What I find destructive to portrait work is that the subject(s) see the first flash and think the picture is over. They then become uninteresting to photograph and the second flash -- accompanied by an image capture -- makes the picture at that time.

 

I prefer the automatic setting on the Metz. This required telling the strobe what iso and aperture you are using. I set to 1/250 on the M8 and go to town.

 

The Metz units have an emormous amount of power. Very satisfying.

 

Also, the information from Metz is a little disappointing in that there was a posting here some weeks ago suggesting that Metz was making a new, Leica-branded flash unit. Too bad.

Bill

 

I also use the Metz 54 and definitely feel it is too large. It does a great job but having to use a metal bracket to hold the flash vertical and the camera horizontal is a hassle. I wonder if the Metz 76, described in a back issue of LFI isn't a better solution since it already contains the camera holder, has more output, and greater control of the flash modes. One problem remains and that is the inability to use the TTL mode. Shame

 

Woody

[Woody Campbell]

I learned about the Olympus fl-36 in a thread on the board some time back. It's compact and its head rotates both directions. Its solid and well-made. Works very well in the auto mode.

[haroldp]

I am new to this forum, but have used Leica's for 40 years ( I still use an M2, and M6 ). I recently purchased a Metz 54 and 3502 to use on an M8. I learned about GnC mode from this forum, ( not the slightest reference in metz documentation ), and it is working. I have extensively used pre-flash with my Nikons, and have noticed that the Leica / Metz pre-flash has a much longer gap between the pre and main flash than the Nikons do. The Nikon gap is imperceptible, and does not pose a problem for subjects, but the Leica / Metz interval might. Hopefully, if they are used to redeye reduction preflashes on small didicams, they might become trained to ignore it. One can also hope that Leica / Metz can reduce this time interval, since it is clearly possible.

 

I agree that for portrait work in cntrolled situations, A mode is probably preferable.

 

Regards ... Haroldp

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[marknorton]

Harold, that's the problem with the Leica GNC. The timing of the pre-flash/main-flash is perfectly set to capture the blink response of the person you are photographing. I have a number of shots of people with their eyes closed.

 

I'm also concerned about the brightness of the pre-flash (in my case from an SF-24D) which will deplete the power available for the main flash. That in turn makes me wonder about the sensitivity of the flash metering in the M8.

 

I tend to use flash much more on a dSLR and Nikon's flash system is very fine.

[wlaidlaw]

I had the 54 and a 3502-M5.

 

1) The GNC exposure is not great - quite frequently underexposes. The pre-flash is brighter and more distracting than the SF24-D. You must always have an IR/UV filter on or the IR element in the pre-flash will give wrong exposures. This can give flare problems when there are other bright lights in an indoor situation. Normally I would avoid using filters when using flash.

 

2) Sometimes the fill in flash seems to work and sometimes not. As I did not like or keep the combo, I did not investigate what the controlling factors were for this.

 

3) On GNC mode there is no EV compensation, which is often needed.

 

4) So if you are limited in reality to A mode, why go for something as large and expensive as a 54/3502, when lots of cheaper bounce flashes will do the same job.

 

I had a number of detailed discussions with Metz and they agreed that the performance 54/3502 was substantially less than optimal on the M8 and they gave me a refund. I have used Metz flashes since 1959. Metz confirmed that there was nothing in the pipeline or future plans to update the SCA3502/M5, which is the fly in the ointment.

 

Wilson