sblitz Posted November 2, 2011 Share #41 Â Posted November 2, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) seafury -- why the lens swap? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 2, 2011 Posted November 2, 2011 Hi sblitz, Take a look here Does a 21mm need a seperate viewfinder. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
StephenPatterson Posted November 2, 2011 Share #42 Â Posted November 2, 2011 I've talked with 2 people who have been shooting with the 21/3.4 Super Elmar M since July and the images I've seen really impressed me. Now, I'm a big fan of the Zeiss 21/2.8 Biogon, and it served me well on the M8 and M9, but I've gotten used to the signature of Leica lenses. Yes, the Leica is more money than the Zeiss, but in the grand scheme of things, where the productive life of a Leica lens can be measured in decades, cost isn't really a factor. Â I have no hesitation recommending the Zeiss lens to anyone on this forum, and I definitely don't recommend that everyone trade them out for the new Leica 21 SEM. But for me it's the right decision. Â Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted November 2, 2011 Share #43 Â Posted November 2, 2011 Ideally, yes. You can get away without one with a little guesswork on the framing - unlike say, a 24/25mm lens which covers just about the entire internal VF. Â is this true ? Â I remember a previous similar thread on the 24mm when it was said that this was also outside the viewfinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted November 2, 2011 Share #44  Posted November 2, 2011 It should be noted that the "image" of the M9 finder posted above is grossly unrealistic - (yes, I know it is Leica's own image originally). It shows a lot of area outside the 35mm frame that is not even close to visible in the real finder.  Below is the way the M9 finder really looks to the eye in practice - with image areas for 28, 24, and 21 lenses added.  For use with 21 or 24 lenses - the accesory finders are part of the "Leica M bargain." Accept them and use them - or buy a different camera.  Personally, I love the 21 focal length - and learned to deal with the accesory finder(s) years ago. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/165063-does-a-21mm-need-a-seperate-viewfinder/?do=findComment&comment=1832819'>More sharing options...
kdriceman Posted November 2, 2011 Share #45 Â Posted November 2, 2011 When I have used a 21 without a finder, I have found myself pressing my eye deep into the eyepiece. Then, I catch myself, rolling my eyeball around, looking inside the viewfinder for the edges of the frame. It is quite distracting and not conducive to effective composition. Â Although I have the Zeiss viewfinder and not the Leica, it is much more effective to take photos with using an appropriate viewfinder. I do wish the Zeiss VF had other framelines to help with centering and composing the image, but it is much, much, better than going without. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted November 2, 2011 Share #46 Â Posted November 2, 2011 Seafury. Thanks for the reply. I own the zeiss and love it as well. No intention of swapping at the moment but I was wondering. Thanks again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsod Posted November 2, 2011 Share #47 Â Posted November 2, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Very good illustration adan. That is exactly how I perceive the viewfinder in my M9. It is possible to see the 28 frame lines without glasses but not much more. I find it more practical and enjoyable to use an external finder for 24 or wider. Since dof is reasonably large for these focal lengths it is not a problem to first focus and then move to the external finder for composition. Â /Paer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
glacierparkmagazine Posted November 4, 2011 Share #48 Â Posted November 4, 2011 I use the 21 daily without one. After awhile, you learn to compose differently . I just move the camera slightly to the left and the right to see what's going to be in the frame, recompose and take the photo. It really isn't that hard. Â Save your cash. Plus chimping isn't going to kill you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted November 4, 2011 Share #49 Â Posted November 4, 2011 Chimping won't kill you, but it takes time you should spend attending to the subject. I chimp occasionally in cases of dubious exposure, but NEVER to see what's in the picture! Â When you are working, your attention must be on the subject, not on the camera. If the camera is more important to you than the subject, get an SLR. Â The old man from the Age of Tri-X (definitely no chimping!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted November 4, 2011 Share #50  Posted November 4, 2011 Chimping won't kill you, but it takes time you should spend attending to the subject. I chimp occasionally in cases of dubious exposure, but NEVER to see what's in the picture! When you are working, your attention must be on the subject, not on the camera. If the camera is more important to you than the subject, get an SLR.  The old man from the Age of Tri-X (definitely no chimping!)  +1  I have caught myself making this mistake when I first got my M9 and got back into photography, but now I only care about looking to see the histogram. That is why the proper VF, to me, is so important. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohnri Posted November 4, 2011 Share #51 Â Posted November 4, 2011 Actually using a 21mm lens and external VF is an incredibly fast solution for street photography. Set exposure manually and set zone focus and there is no need to look through the rangefinder window. I will shoot as I'm raising the external VF to my eye. I've also used this technique with a 35mm lens, composing in the center of the 21VF. Â The street photography that I see is not happening at remotely the speeds I'm talking about. Â The external VF slows you down, even if you are very fast with it you will be a lot faster without it. Â Best, Â Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohnri Posted November 4, 2011 Share #52 Â Posted November 4, 2011 Â For use with 21 or 24 lenses - the accesory finders are part of the "Leica M bargain." Accept them and use them - or buy a different camera. Â Â Wow. Really? Â It appears you are not open to the techniques or needs of others. Not all of us shoot only stationary or slowly moving subjects. Â I'll keep my M9 and my 21 'lux and keep using it without a finder to great effect thank you. Â Best, Â Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lars_bergquist Posted November 4, 2011 Share #53  Posted November 4, 2011 The street photography that I see is not happening at remotely the speeds I'm talking about. The external VF slows you down, even if you are very fast with it you will be a lot faster without it.  Best,  Bill  If you do zone focusing, then an auxiliary finder is no slower than the camera finder – both are just a window to compose the picture in. If you have an accessory finder on the camera and zone focus, you simply don't use the camera finder for anything, so you are not switching from one to the other.  The old man from the Age of the VIOOH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted November 4, 2011 Share #54 Â Posted November 4, 2011 Maybe I misinterpret, but it sounds like ohnri just shoots from the hip or just gets the shot without ever bringing the camera to his face/eye. Â I have tried that with pretty good results with a GF1 & 20/1.7 and also the Panasonic P&S LX5, but never with an M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohnri Posted November 4, 2011 Share #55  Posted November 4, 2011 If you do zone focusing, then an auxiliary finder is no slower than the camera finder – both are just a window to compose the picture in. If you have an accessory finder on the camera and zone focus, you simply don't use the camera finder for anything, so you are not switching from one to the other. The old man from the Age of the VIOOH  Agreed when zone focusing is adequate.  Shooting the 21 'lux wide open often makes zone focusing inadequate. In this case, the auxiliary finder is distinctly and unavoidably slower.  Best,  Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenPatterson Posted November 4, 2011 Share #56  Posted November 4, 2011 The street photography that I see is not happening at remotely the speeds I'm talking about. The external VF slows you down, even if you are very fast with it you will be a lot faster without it.  Best,  Bill  Bill, the only way faster is to "shoot from the hip", which I also do. However, when I have a second or two, I just raise the external VF to my eye and click away, having already set my zone focus and exposure. This makes the Leica the fastest camera for street photography.  As to your point about shooting wide open, I don't know many street photographers who do this. Most choose an aperture that will have sufficient DOF to capture the moment in context.  Stephen Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdriceman Posted November 4, 2011 Share #57  Posted November 4, 2011 The street photography that I see is not happening at remotely the speeds I'm talking about. The external VF slows you down, even if you are very fast with it you will be a lot faster without it.  Best,  Bill  ?? If you zone focus it would be exactly the same... Except for that split second you utilize the actual frame lines to include or exclude something in the frame. However, if you don't care about what is included at the edges of your composition, then using the viewfinder might slow you down by maybe 1/2 second per shot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohnri Posted November 4, 2011 Share #58  Posted November 4, 2011 Maybe I misinterpret, but it sounds like ohnri just shoots from the hip or just gets the shot without ever bringing the camera to his face/eye. I have tried that with pretty good results with a GF1 & 20/1.7 and also the Panasonic P&S LX5, but never with an M9.  Not at all. I generally use the 21 'lux at or near wide open in lousy light with fast moving subjects.  Not focusing carefully would leave me with rubbish for pictures.  Using an external VF would slow me down to the point of missing the majority of shots.  For street shooting, the subjects are a lot slower and more predictable and zone focusing or shooting from the hip is often effective. An external VF may even be useful.  Best,  Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohnri Posted November 4, 2011 Share #59 Â Posted November 4, 2011 ?? If you zone focus it would be exactly the same... Except for that split second you utilize the actual frame lines to include or exclude something in the frame. However, if you don't care about what is included at the edges of your composition, then using the viewfinder might slow you down by maybe 1/2 second per shot. Â Unfortunately, zone focus does not provide me with anything close to enough accuracy and 1/2 second may as well be an eternity. Â Of course, for typical street shooting things tend to move slowly and predictably enough that zone focusing can be effective. Â Not using a VF in no way implies not caring about the edges of composition. Â No doubt that using an external VF will, at times, make it easier to "critically compose", but, using a DSLR or live view works even better. Maybe everyone that really cares about composition should shun CRF's and their wildly inaccurate framelines altogether. Just a thought. Â Best, Â Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted November 4, 2011 Share #60 Â Posted November 4, 2011 I have a question; comparison debate is between Zeiss and Leica viewfinder but how does Voigtlander VFs measure up , thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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