Leica M8 and Nikon SB-900 unreliability

[sergiofigliolia]

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Hi guys,

the other day I shot a few pics of a friend outside at night with weak ambient light with my M8 + SB-900.

I set the Nikon SB-900+standard diffuser to manual mode(can't remember the value but I didn't change it throughout the shots) and kept the same position(we were both sitting on a bench) and moreover distance from the subject.

I was struck by the unreliability of the setup.

Sometimes the SB-900 didn't fire.

Astonishingly the results were so bad. Only 1 was fine and the others were either heavily underexposed or completely burned out.

I'm very disappointed.

The only reason I can blame myself for might be the use of a center weighted illumination pattern on the flash.

Maybe it could be that tilting the camera a bit would change the amount of light going on to the subject.

Honestly I wouldn't think this was the case as I had the light diffuser on all the time.

Anyone experimented such problems?

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[jaapv]

Does the flashwork correctly on manual with other cameras.? Set the M8 to first curtain. Set the shutter speed manually within the sync range.

[JeTexas]

If you've been using the SB-900 on a Nikon, you're probably used to it metering and adjusting itself from shot to shot. It won't do that on the Leica. You have to run it in full manual mode and set the f stop, shutter speed and ISO on the flash to match the camera. Then you can fine tune it up and down with the EV +/- adjustment.

 

(Disclaimer: I have the SB-800, but I'm guessing the 900 works the same way.)

[sergiofigliolia]

Hang on JeTexas.

If it's full manual mode (M) then you only have to set the fraction of the flash power you want.

1, 1/2, 1/4....1/128.

 

No aperture nor iso nor any more settings to set.

[Jamie Roberts]

First, if you look through the many discussions on using manual flashes on digital Ms, you'll see that the SB900 (I have three of them) will not lock into the M9 hotshoe without a modification to the shoe or the camera. That's why it's not firing consistently IMO (unless of course, you've gone above 1/180s; the M9 will not even send a fire signal above that shutter speed).

 

If you use a TT1 PocketWizard, or some other manual to manual conversion, like a Nikon TTL to TTL cord, then it will fire totally reliably--in manual mode only.

 

Secondly, if you're on manual power with a flash, you need to adjust the ISO and aperture to get a good exposure with the flash. Shutter speed will also come into play, but it generally controls your ambient, so, yes--you do have to adjust aperture according to the flash output.

 

Next time you're in those conditions--taking pictures of a friend, try this simple algorithm, with any flash that will fire reliably from the M9:

 

1) Set your aperture between f2.8 and f4

 

2) Adjust the exposure in manual (ISO + shutter speed) to have your friend 1 or 2 stops below what the meter says the exposure should be. You need to keep the shutter at 1/180s or less.

 

In dim conditions, I would set the ISO at 800 and go from there.

 

3) Adjust the flash output to give you good exposure at your desired f stop. Start with 1/8 power and see what that looks like... go up or down from there. Depending on the distance to the subject and whether you're bouncing or not, you could end up around 1/16 or even 1/32 power.

 

4) If you open the aperture--> turn the flash output down, and remember you're letting in more ambient light (which can blur the shot at low shutter speeds).

If you close the aperture--> turn the flash output up, and remember you're using more and more of the flash light with less ambient (useful if the ambient is really crappy).

[sergiofigliolia]

I looked through the discussions already and contributed to them as I could.

My SB-900 stays firmly on my M8.

 

What I mean by not adjusting ISO and aperture is "not setting them on the flash" but obviously on the camera.

How would I think not to adjust aperture and ISO on camera?

 

I might be wrong but in manual mode:

1: will fire flash at full power (the highest achievable by that specific flash)

1/2: half the full power

and so on

 

I didn't think that iso-set-on-flash and aperture-set-on-flash would have an effect.

 

Obviously if you change the iso and aperture on camera this DOES affect exposure.

 

But still: my question was about reliability. I had very different results with the same settings and camera/flash/subject position!

[Shade]

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Well a third party flash with no communication at all is always unrealiable my friend. It is a safe bet that you will have to re-adjust your shots nearly every time. Different positions may cause the camera to meter differently hence react differently to the flash light. It would be best to use both the camera and the flash in full manual mode to get a more stable result.

[sergiofigliolia]

full manual on both flash and camera is what I used!

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

But still: my question was about reliability. I had very different results with the same settings and camera/flash/subject position!

 

Fair enough on all counts. I still don't trust the SB900 coupling to the M9, and as you said, it wasn't firing all the time, so something is wrong there.

 

But you're right on everything else. On full manual, the flash should output full power at setting 1:1 and half at 1:2 and a quarter at 1:4 and so on. Nothing else on the settings on the flash would change that, unless of course you somehow slipped into Auto Flash setting on the SB900....

 

It should be extremely reliable and consistent set to manual shooting a subject in the same position / distance from the flash.

 

So something is wrong with the flash itself or with its coupling to the M9...

[jaapv]

Well a third party flash with no communication at all is always unrealiable my friend. It is a safe bet that you will have to re-adjust your shots nearly every time. Different positions may cause the camera to meter differently hence react differently to the flash light. It would be best to use both the camera and the flash in full manual mode to get a more stable result.

 

The M9 will not meter for third party flashes at all.

[Clook]

I cannot talk about the SB 900 but I have used SB 800's on my M8's for a couple of years I'm assuming here that they are similar in operation, certainly on Leica M's. Apart from feeling a bit 'top-heavy' on the M8 I have found them to be satisfactory in operation. I tend not to use the diffusion cap and shoot the flash unit in 'A' mode which I believe stands for 'Auto-thryistor', whereby a cell in the flash unit detects the amount of light available and adjusts flash power accordingly. I also input iso, focal length and aperture values into the flashgun. As for your unreliable firing issue, with my set-up it sometimes happens and I put it down to weak or low power batteries being used and not recharging the flash quick enough. (User error on my part!)

Can't help you specifically with the coupling issue, but no problems with SB 800.

[Jamie Roberts]

Well a third party flash with no communication at all is always unrealiable my friend. It is a safe bet that you will have to re-adjust your shots nearly every time. Different positions may cause the camera to meter differently hence react differently to the flash light. It would be best to use both the camera and the flash in full manual mode to get a more stable result.

 

Just to add to what Jaap said, a third party flash on manual is actually exceptionally stable and reliable (leaving aside the locking issues with the SB900--not at all the same as the SB800--and the Ms). That's why PocketWizards work so well (and studio strobes, etc...).

 

A manual flash or strobe should put out the same amount of light every time according to its own power setting; the camera is telling it nothing (and that's a good thing).

 

That's how it should work. The fact that it doesn't means there's a problem with the camera firing flash synch, the flash itself or the connection to the flash. Since SB800s (and other Nikon, Metz, and Canon, Vivitar and various studio strobes) all work with the M8 / M9 with no problems whatsoever, and the 900 has a totally different shoe and locking mechanism, I suspect the 900... but until the OP tries another flash it's impossible to tell what the actual problem is.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Jamie Roberts

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}I tend not to use the diffusion cap and shoot the flash unit in 'A' mode which I believe stands for 'Auto-thryistor', whereby a cell in the flash unit detects the amount of light available and adjusts flash power accordingly. I also input iso, focal length and aperture values into the flashgun.{snipped}

 

Yes, if you use an auto-mode flash (like the 800 or Canon 580v2) then of course you have to set the ISO and aperture on the flash.

 

You'll find you probably need to calibrate the overall system too with a meter; what the M8 /M9 considers properly exposed at ISO 640 isn't the same as what the SB800 considers properly exposed... I would bet.

 

In fact, I found A-mode flash pretty useless, and went back to M mode shooting exclusively (or occasionally TTL with the Leica SF flash). But I didn't do a strict calibration of the two systems.

[NikonJeff]

I tried my SB-900 and SB-800 on my M8 and the issue is that the "X" contact doesn't seat fully between the non-Leica flash and the Leica hotshoe. If while using either flash on my M8 I need to apply a little forehead pressure to the flash to guarantee firing.

 

If I use an old SC-17 cord it fires every time in "A" or manual mode on the flash...

[Jamie Roberts]

Hey Jeff--interesting on the SB800. I had no problems using one of them on my M8, but the SB900 simply would not contact properly.

 

I think manufacturers are constantly messing with stuff these days.

 

For example, I have (expensive!) Paramount hotshoe to mini-jack cables for attaching a stand mounted flash to a pocket wizard. Every flash I own--except the new Canon 580v2s--works with those cables. But the shoe in the Canon is grounding out somehow. And this is with the simplest of manual shoe triggers.

 

What a PITA. But it goes to show you really need to test stuff...even supposedly compatible stuff

[NikonJeff]

Hey Jeff--interesting on the SB800. I had no problems using one of them on my M8, but the SB900 simply would not contact properly.

 

I think manufacturers are constantly messing with stuff these days.

 

For example, I have (expensive!) Paramount hotshoe to mini-jack cables for attaching a stand mounted flash to a pocket wizard. Every flash I own--except the new Canon 580v2s--works with those cables. But the shoe in the Canon is grounding out somehow. And this is with the simplest of manual shoe triggers.

 

What a PITA. But it goes to show you really need to test stuff...even supposedly compatible stuff

 

Yea - Jamie I thought since the SB-800 was a tad smaller and older it *might* fit better but it didn't for me. Unless I was forehead into the flash it was hot or miss on firing... Looking for a Leica SF-24D to at least get me started. Interestingly enough my old Olympus T-32 flash works flawlessly!