Issues for Leica to Address

[barjohn]

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After reading so many posts on several different forums about M8 issues I thought I would consolidate them into one thread that Leica engineers could look at rather than chasing through all of the posts. I also included a few desireds as a separate issue. Perhaps others can add to the lists any issues I missed or new features they would like.

 

Additionally, I wonder if anyone has done the following test for hot pixels:

I shot with the lens cap on at B for 10 sec, then 8, 4, 2 and 1. In reviewing the images, they would first appear with lots of hot pixels all over the sensor, then about 2 seconds later all black. Same thing with every shot. It is as if it shows you the unprocessed image and then the processed image. However when I loaded them in C1 and viewed both DNGs and JPGs they were all black. Anyone else tried this?

 

Finally, the good news is that looking at the list 80% or more is likely to be fixable in software.

 

Issues to be addressed by Leica on M8 (Things to be fixed)

1. Camera lock up, i.e. dead camera unable to reset or obtain normal function

2. Battery charging and charge level indicator error (calibration?)

3. Continuous shutter recocking

4. Lock up on sensor clean if shutter not pressed quickly enough

5. Vertical streak on some images at some ISOs

6. Some lenses having mounting problems (Summilux 35 & WATE)

7. Auto White Balance and preset WB

8. Variety of SD card incompatibilities especially HC (4GB and greater)

9. Transferring files to PC and files recognized as TIFF instead of DNG

10. Back focusing on some lenses and not others

11. Cyan color shift on wide angle lens with use of IR filter

12. Improved detent on Off-Single-Continuos-Self timer switch

13. Inconsistent LCD display level (brightens and dims)

14. Shifting changing LCD image, shows one image for a few seconds then shifts to a processed version of image

15. Quality Control issues with dirty sensors, deffective sensors with column of dead pixels, RF Alignment, etc.

 

Desired New Features (Enhancements)

1. Ability to select lens in use from menu for uncoded lenses or lenses like WATE

2. Ability to select apeture for Exif recording or have camera specify estimated apeture based on sensors

3. Have camera recognized as a file device rather than M8 device to make transfers with multiple applications easier

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[barjohn]

Has anyone else tried the hot pixels test? I know on the R-D1 you had a function that would do a black frame subtract to map and eliminate hot pixels. It appears to me that the M8 is doing this for any long exposure. What concerned me was the apparent number of hot pixels. I only saw a few on the R-D1 whereas it looked almost like a starry sky with teh M8.

[Shootist]

Just ran it on a 1/30 a 1/1 exposure and it comes back with zero dead and zero hot.

[barjohn]

Did you observe any strange behavior when viewing on camera? I first see pixels like stars then it goes black within a second or two. Especially at longer exposure times. Try 8 and 4 sec. Thanks. Now when I re-test, I only see one hot pixel and it goes out within a second. Not sure why it changed.

[banifa]

I did the same exact test and get the same results as you. It's like the sky with stars of many colors. You can repeat is many times with the cap on, the speed on Auto and it will take about 30 seconds before releasing the shutter. The numbers of hot pixels can be viewed on photoshop

 

Amir

[marknorton]

To that list, I'd add:

 

- Horizontal band to the centre of the image when there's a bright light source right at the edge of the frame.

- When you wake the camera up from sleep and display an image, the frame counter at the top of the display shows 0/0.

- Rainbow vertical lines when you take a picture immediately after power-up or wake-up.

- Better quality split rings for the wide shoulder strap

- New lens hood offering with built-in IR filter for the WATE when used on an M8 to avoid the need to use the filter adapter ring.

[j. borger]

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I just hope of a fix of nr 1 of the list ... the rest is minor

[Shootist]

Did you observe any strange behavior when viewing on camera? I first see pixels like stars then it goes black within a second or two. Especially at longer exposure times. Try 8 and 4 sec. Thanks. Now when I re-test, I only see one hot pixel and it goes out within a second. Not sure why it changed.

 

I did look at the black image on the camera LCD and didn't notice any odd stars at all. I then copied the images to my PC and used Deadpixeltest.exe on both images. That is where I got the 0&0

I just did a second test at 2/4/8 seconds and now I do see the stars on the LCD for a second or two then they go away.

I also ran Dead Pixel Test on the coverted DNG to TIFF and again it came back with zero and zero. But that is after the camera had overlayed the blank/black image it takes with all long exposure shots.

When looking at the images on the camera LCD I saw about 3 stars with the 4s exposure and maybe 6-7 @ 8s.

[barjohn]

I did the same exact test and get the same results as you. It's like the sky with stars of many colors. You can repeat is many times with the cap on, the speed on Auto and it will take about 30 seconds before releasing the shutter. The numbers of hot pixels can be viewed on photoshop

 

Amir

 

Is it possible that this sensor has that many hot pixels? That is the question I was aiming at or is it just some kind of processing error with the black subtract program? Anyone care to venture an opinion? If it is that many hot pixels why don't we see it in images taken?

[Shootist]

I think it more of a long exposure thing/deal. with a 1 and 2 second exposure I don't see the stars on the camera LCD.

Is it posible to turn off the black subtractive image feature on the M8?

[sps]

I've done some exposures that have been in the 30 second range (for over 32 seconds you need to use the "bulb" setting). The amount of "starry sky" effect is enormous. The second, black, exposure corrects this nicely.

 

I figure if I can wait for 1/2 a minute for the exposure, I can wait another half a minute for it to clean itself up.

[sek]

I did the same exact test and get the same results as you. It's like the sky with stars of many colors. You can repeat is many times with the cap on, the speed on Auto and it will take about 30 seconds before releasing the shutter.

 

Amir

 

Well, I get also such stars with that test!

 

- Svend

[barjohn]

On the R-D1 i never saw that many hot pixels on long exposures. On other cameras you may have, have you seen this? It it a long exposure thing only, i.e. not stuck pixels? I don't have enough experience with high end equipment to evaluate it. I figured someone like Jamie or Sean would know the answer.

[35mmSummicron]

Amir i get the same results as you do at high ISOs (1250&2500) taking this test. what i see is A LOT of colour noise, so much so that it reaches into aprox. 1/10th of the deep shadows on the histogram. thankfully, i am not seeing hot pixels......

 

although my actual images shot at 1250/2500 do not look any different from high ISO M8 shots ive seen and have access to (i have tested serveral demo models in a few countries too before getting my own!)

 

i generally like the look of 1250 iso, but i think 2500 is unuseable for colour work because there is A LOT of colour noise that cannot be removed easily, and noise ninja tends to remove A LOT of detail trying to smooth out the file.

 

that said, C1 Pro does quite a good job of cleaning the files up compared to other developers.....

 

andy

 

 

I did the same exact test and get the same results as you. It's like the sky with stars of many colors. You can repeat is many times with the cap on, the speed on Auto and it will take about 30 seconds before releasing the shutter. The numbers of hot pixels can be viewed on photoshop

 

Amir

[tom0511]

I just hope of a fix of nr 1 of the list ... the rest is minor

 

for me its #11, rest marginal

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Number 11 the rest is being fixed . No 9 is not a Leica issue but a PC issue . The rest is what has been all reported to leica and with a little patience i am sure 1.10 will address many of them including 11.

[Jamie Roberts]

{snipped}

Desired New Features (Enhancements)

1. Ability to select lens in use from menu for uncoded lenses or lenses like WATE

2. Ability to select apeture for Exif recording or have camera specify estimated apeture based on sensors

3. Have camera recognized as a file device rather than M8 device to make transfers with multiple applications easier

 

John--number 3 is really a non-issue. Buy a USB2 card reader (or FW if on a Mac), please, or get one of those Sandisk cards with the USB port built in (no don't--get a card reader!). They cost next to nothing, and transferring files from your camera is a waste of camera time and battery.

 

So I'd rather see Leica spend limited resources addressing the last remaining visible artifacts, like the light artifacts visible in 1.09 if a bright light is overexposed right on the midway point of the vertical frame... it's a readout problem from the sensor.

 

Leica making the camera "a disc" might mess up OS camera identification which may be important for any live tethering of the body, though I'm not sure who tethers an M

[sps]

As for the number of hot pixels, maybe this is just a Kodak thing since so many with Canon/Nikon/Epson are surprised by it. I don't think it is a problem with the M8, just a design issue with Kodak chips.

 

I have a Kodak 16MP back on my Contax645, and I get an even worse result than with the M8. Thankfully Leica had the forethought to include the noise reduction routine. This was a real selling point for me as I enjoy taking long exposure night landscapes.