Why no video review of R9/R8

[SJP]

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No, you aren't alone. The real question is - can Leica produce such a camera at such a price and actually make money on it? <snip>

Using the innards of the M9 + a mirror & pentaprism i.s.o. the rangefinder would basically do the job. It doesn't sound like a major upheaval of the logistics to me. I expect the required parts can be bought "off the shelf".

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[adan]

SJP - With 85 years experience designing, building, and marketing cameras (45 years with SLRs), Leica decided it was not as simple as you suggest. Persuade me you know more about camera-making (as a business) than Leica does. More importantly - persuade Leica....

 

It doesn't help your case that you left out quite a few key components, such as an aperture stop-down mechanism, linkages for reading the full and set aperture, a different microprism array for long-back-focus SLR lenses, additional power to supply the energy for moving a mirror and the aperture linkage, aperture and shutter speed readouts in the finder... it's a long list.

[SJP]

SJP - With 85 years experience designing, building, and marketing cameras (45 years with SLRs), Leica decided it was not as simple as you suggest. Persuade me you know more about camera-making (as a business) than Leica does. <snip>

I don't and never claimed to, so who is being suggestive here? Why do I need to prove anything?

 

Anyway, to elaborate if you can build a Nikon FMx or whatever for 1500$ then all you really need to do is stuff a digital sensor in. Who needs shutter speeds or aperture values in the display? I don't & the M8/9 provides the former with the existing electronics.

 

In addition to your questions why should I (try to) persuade Leica? I am happy enough with my current film SLR's. I am just informing them via this forum that I believe there is a market for non auto-focus DSLR. I have no desire whatsoever to take over their management, while you seem to be doing exactly that: "of course it can't be done" is management decision advice (as well) or am I missing something here?.

 

Maybe increasing the price to 15,000$ will make the R10 or whatever more desirable & marketable but that is not a technical consideration. Price elasticity & marketing is a completely different game that Leica understands better than most.

 

If they wanted to they could make a non-autofocus, basic, no bells and whistles, R10 for less than 5Keuro. Maybe they don't want to, that is their freedom of choice, and then I won't be able to buy the thing. Life is so simple sometimes.

[adan]

For the record, I'm with you on wanting a more manual DSLR. My target would be a digital "Nikon F3 sans motor" for size, screen, and the pop-off prism - and a 24x36 sensor. I fake it as best I can with a Canon 5D2 modified by an R adapter and a Haoda split-image focusing screen (and M9s for any lens shorter than 180mm).

 

Where we differ, I guess, is that I don't think that enough people still share that desire to make it a viable product. An FMx for $1500 may be possible if Nikon can sell 5,000,000 of them, but not if Nikon can sell only 10,000 of them. There are economies of scale involved. For a small firm like Leica, "economies of scale" are something that mostly happens to other companies....

 

What was the very first thing Canon and Minolta dropped in moving to autofocus 25 years ago? The mechanical links to the lenses (no aperture rings, no actuation levers, no cams). Because they were expensive luxuries, even then.

[SJP]

Hi Andy, OK thanks for the explanation, I agree about the economy of scale. FWIW I was Googling for suppliers of camera parts and found a Chinese website where they provide replacement(?) LCD units for a wide range of camera's. The prices were often less than 10$ even for ordering single units, complete with driver electronics, connectors etc. the whole shebang. That is why "off the shelf" was a major qualifier in my (admittedly uneducated) proposal.

 

From a business point of view I guess Leica might fear that such a (hypothetical) device would eat into their S2 turnover & desirability. Why shoot your own foot?

[Joop van Heijgen]

Hi Andy, OK thanks for the explanation, I agree about the economy of scale. FWIW I was Googling for suppliers of camera parts and found a Chinese website where they provide replacement(?) LCD units for a wide range of camera's. The prices were often less than 10$ even for ordering single units, complete with driver electronics, connectors etc. the whole shebang. That is why "off the shelf" was a major qualifier in my (admittedly uneducated) proposal.

 

From a business point of view I guess Leica might fear that such a (hypothetical) device would eat into their S2 turnover & desirability. Why shoot your own foot?

 

"The prices were often less than 10$ even for ordering single units, complete with driver electronics, connectors etc. the whole shebang. That is why "off the shelf" was a major qualifier in my (admittedly uneducated) proposal."

 

Also Leica digital cameras are in fact cameras with video electronic technics and the prices of the electronic parts will strongly decrease with the coming years....

Making a digital Leica R10 will be economical for Leica after decreasing sales of the digital M camera. In near future Leica can make a digital SLR commercial for their market.

[mmradman]

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"The prices were often less than 10$ even for ordering single units, complete with driver electronics, connectors etc. the whole shebang. That is why "off the shelf" was a major qualifier in my (admittedly uneducated) proposal."

 

Also Leica digital cameras are in fact cameras with video electronic technics and the prices of the electronic parts will strongly decrease with the coming years....

Making a digital Leica R10 will be economical for Leica after decreasing sales of the digital M camera. In near future Leica can make a digital SLR commercial for their market.

 

There is more to the final price of end product than marginal cost of individual components. Think development, quality control, all these are human activities and involve expensive labour.

 

By this logic all electrical & mechanical parts for full frame digital camera would be $100, assuming cost of full frame sensor $1500, add 50% to cover overhead, development, production cost & profit etc and it would cost you $2400, not far off from what Sony/Canon/Nikon charges for their FF offering.

 

Obviously to pull it off you will need volume production & matching sales to cover the cost of development.

 

My advice to anyone desiring R10 from Leica: -

 

a) Contract Leica and promise to place firm order on first 1000 units.

Agree specification and price, cough the money for the contracted batch - price may be closer to M9 Titanium than above $2400, only Leica can tell.

c) Enjoy your R10, you will become superstar in Leica lore.

d) You may even make profit in the process.

[SJP]

If they want a firm commitment I will be happy to sign. Assuming that the price is known beforehand.

[mmradman]

If they want a firm commitment I will be happy to sign. Assuming that the price is known beforehand.

 

Time for petition with business proposal.

Leica is after all niche manufacturer, they did it before with LTM versions of M lenses.

Any volunteers?

[Joop van Heijgen]

Time for petition with business proposal.

Leica is after all niche manufacturer, they did it before with LTM versions of M lenses.

Any volunteers?

 

Not a bad idea because Leica did this in the past for the Leica M4-2 :

 

"Kluck’s research indicated that labor costs were sufficiently lower in Canada to justify moving Leica M camera production to Canada. But Leitz Wetzlar management, well known for its conservative attitude, was skeptical and suggested a precaution: they would approve if Kluck could prove that he could sell at least 4000 such cameras per year. Thereupon the personable and persuasive Mr. Kluck embarked on a fast tour of selected photo dealers in Canada, USA, Germany, Switzerland and Japan (Japan was a great supporter!) to ask them how many Canadian-made Leica M4 cameras they would buy at the anticipated new price. To his delighted surprise, more than 9000 cameras were ordered -- and permission was granted to transfer Leica M4 production tools to Canada."

 

From:

 

Walter Kluck, the Man who Saved the Leica M System

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62799

[mmradman]

Chance for Herr Kluck the Second to step in.

 

Everything is possible providing there is confidence that goods can be sold without the loss.

 

All is needed is polled firm commitment of initial number of buyers. New buyers would probably follow.

 

Zeiss is selling manual focus lenses for Canon & Nikon so why not restart R lenses production if suddenly R system demand goes up.

 

I think there is sound realisation with number of photographers that AF is not panacea so demand for MF system could be drummed up, after all M system is doing well in the midst of AF world.

 

Leica may have made prototype of R10 or if not DMR style back with FF sensor could be easily adopted with M9 sensor/electronics, providing tooling for R8/9 is still available or can be dusted off.

 

Any volunteers to actually speak with Leica and gauge their reaction.

[adan]

EDIT - OK, OK - we all had the same thought

 

 

By the way, mmradman's "modest proposal" is exactly how Leitz Canada revived the M System after Wetzlar decided to eliminate it in the late 1970's.

 

There's a thread on the Film Forum with a link to the story: ELC President Walter Kluck came up with a simplified M4 design (M4-2), a plan for production costs with Canadian labor, and commitments from dealers. The key was to be able to show hard numbers that added up to a profit.

 

And one other factor - at that time, Leica made all their own parts for the most part. It is trickier if one has to outsource a unique key component like a sensor (Kodak) or circuitry (Jenoptik), since the suppliers may require a minimum order.

 

There are a couple of other problems that would have to be addressed (I'm not being obstructionist, but problems can only be solved if they are acknowledged)

 

1. Leitz Canada already had a work-force and factory space available. Given that Leica Solms is having trouble meeting M demand as it is (even with the elimination of the R system) - a proposal would need to specify who would build this new camera, and where. It might have to wait until the move to Leica-Park.

 

2. To what extent were the R cameras subsidized by R lens sales? The main reason Walter Kluck made his proposal to Wetzlar was to save the jobs of the Canadian workers making M lenses. If there are no new R lenses, can a stand-alone body survive depending solely on the lenses available on the used market? And if not, who builds the "new" R lenses, and where?

 

On the idea of converting the M9 structure to an SLR, I might note that Cosina was able to do the reverse in creating the Voigtlander Bessa cameras. They simplified the basic SLRs they were already building for Nikon (FM-10), Vivitar and Olympus - by leaving out the mirror, levers, and prism. But subtraction is easier than addition.

[mmradman]

Until individual or group comes forward with offer Leica can not refuse we can only talk about it.

 

Best possible outcome satisfying demands of users and in line with Leica's own development strategy would be realisation full frame mirrorless compatible with all legacy lenses - M & R.

[Sileem]

I imagine even if Leica moves production out of Germany,

it's still gonna be very expensive to make the nice metal parts from solid metal block,

even in very poor country like Estonia where you earn from minimum neto salary 240 € a month to extremely high salary gross 900-1500 € that CNC machine programmer / operator gets. + there ain't skilled programmers. So yeah labor is expensive, and some plastic parts are not gonna replace Leica quality.

 

Well, some day there is gonna be for sure 35mm dSLR by Leica.

If you look how fast digital is moving - M8 - M8.2 - M9

[mmradman]

I imagine even if Leica moves production out of Germany,

it's still gonna be very expensive to make the nice metal parts from solid metal block,

even in very poor country like Estonia where you earn from minimum neto salary 240 € a month to extremely high salary gross 900-1500 € that CNC machine programmer / operator gets. + there ain't skilled programmers. So yeah labor is expensive, and some plastic parts are not gonna replace Leica quality.

 

Well, some day there is gonna be for sure 35mm dSLR by Leica.

If you look how fast digital is moving - M8 - M8.2 - M9

 

Moving production is not an issue, guaranteed sales is.

 

Metal parts vs plastic parts was discussed on LUF in the past.

 

Once you design part(s) and programme CNC machine it is actually cheaper to produce small batch of metal parts than to extrude same quantity of plastic parts. This is how Leica operates. Today most part fabrication is subcontracted to specialised suppliers while final assembly is carried out by mother company.

 

Cost advantage of metal parts over plastic is that you need to make very expensive tools for extrusion first while metal machine shop can do parts for Leica one day and same CNC machine can make something else for unrelated buyer following day.

 

Speaking from personal experience with number of production facilities in Germany it is magic to watch CNC machines manned by German workers paid German wages and benefits turning out complex metal parts for German industrial goods that are sold world wide at most competitive prices. OK you can source "same" licence produced goods from either India or China but real quality is not the same - there is no substitute for Germanic craftmanship.

[thebarnman]

A fantastic camera, but I can't agree that they were ahead of their time. The lack of autofocus - as an option even if not as an essential - probably limited their appeal. I have a feeling that if they had featured some kind of autofocus system the digital R would be with us today.

 

There's no digital M with auto focus and those sales are good.