Xmas Posted July 31, 2011 Share #81 Posted July 31, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Scrubs, Many thanks for this considerable amount of work that I greatly appreciate. Before folks start reporting, the forum needs to develop a consensus with Leica of what is a complete relevant M9 Problem Reporting Template. In addition to the information you just provided, I would like to suggest the following as well: M9 firmware version Lens used Memory card used Also, after your list the question I posted before. I plan to go over this shortly and put together an even more complete list. But you already did the bulk of the work. Many many thanks for that. With best regards, K-H. I'd suggest also adding. M9 serial number & type (or M8 serial number etc.) Who knows what differences there may be. If it might help Leica I'd post the memory card to Solms as well with paper copy of problem report proforma. Some of the problems may be timing issues between the M9 and card, or mislabeled (e.g. counterfeit) cards. Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 31, 2011 Posted July 31, 2011 Hi Xmas, Take a look here SD Card Tests with and without M9. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
scrubs Posted July 31, 2011 Share #82 Posted July 31, 2011 I'd suggest also adding.M9 serial number & type (or M8 serial number etc.) Who knows what differences there may be. If it might help Leica I'd post the memory card to Solms as well with paper copy of problem report proforma. Some of the problems may be timing issues between the M9 and card, or mislabeled (e.g. counterfeit) cards. Noel good Idea Noel Edit: ah bugger... I missed the editing deadline - forgot about that feature so It won't let me edit it anymore. Anyway I will hand that thread over to the mods to make any small additions, If the thread turns out to be of help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted July 31, 2011 Share #83 Posted July 31, 2011 Scrubs, Trust me, it will. Your efforts aren't in vain. We need to slow down just a bit. Thanks, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted July 31, 2011 Share #84 Posted July 31, 2011 As the other thread http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/193908-m9-problem-reporting-template.html is fortunately closed, we will continue discussion about an M9 Problem Reporting Template here. This is another iteration in producing a template for reporting M9 problems. Thanks to everybody who provided feedback, especially scrubs. It is intended for discussion and feedback of forum members to admin Andreas Jürgensen to talk with Leica. I was thinking - wherever possible - of a multiple choice format so that reporting folks have a minimum amount of work to do. For example: M9 firmware version, choose one: 1.162 1.138 1.116 1.002 So, in reporting this would look for firmware version 1.162 like this: 1.162 1.138 1.116 1.002 So, here goes the modified proposed list in systematic order: Proposal: M9 Problem Reporting Template M9 Serial Number please, don't show last 2 digits: M9 firmware version, choose one: 1.162 1.138 1.116 1.002 Lens mounted, please describe uniquely: --- Memory card used, please describe uniquely: Power switch set from OFF to: S C Timer Exposure wheel set to: A B 8s in between 4s in between 2s in between 1s in between 2 in between 4 in between 8 in between 15 in between 30 in between 60 in between 125 lightning symbol 250 in between 500 in between 1000 in between 2000 in between 4000 Menu Button items: Lens detection - Off - Auto - Manual 16-18-21 ASPH F/4 @16mm 11626 16-18-21 ASPH F/4 @18mm 11626 16-18-21 ASPH F/4 @21mm 11626 21 f/2.8 11134 21 f2.8 ASPH 11135/11897 24 f2.8 ASPH 11878/11898 28 F/2 ASPH 11604 28 F/2.8 11804 28 F/2.8 11809 28 F2.8 ASPH 11606 28-35-50 ASPH F/4 @28mm 11625 28-35-50 ASPH F/4 @35mm 11625 28-35-50 ASPH F/4 @50mm 11625 35 F/1.4 11869/11870/11860 35 F/1.4 11874/11883 35 F/2 11310/11311 35 F/2 ASPH 11879/11882 50 F/1 11821/11822 50 F/1.2 11820 50 F/1.4 11868/11856/11114 50 F/1.4 ASPH 11891/11892 50 F/2 11817 50 F/2 11817 50 F/2 11819/11825/11816 50 F/2.8 11831/11823/11824 75 F/1.4 11814/11815/11810 75 F/2 ASPH 11884/11885 90 F/2.8 11800 90 F/2.8 11807/11808 90 F/4 11633/11634 MACRO-ADAPTER-M F. 90 F/4 14409 135 F/2.8 11829 135 F/3.4 APO 11889 135 F/4 11851/11861 --- Save user profile ? --- Advance Standard Soft Discreet Discr. & Soft --- Self Timer Off 2s 12s --- Auto ISO Setup - Slowest Speed Lens dependant 1/125s 1/60s 1/30s 1/15s 1/8s - Max ISO PULL 80 ISO 160 ISO 200 ISO 250 ISO 320 ISO 400 ISO 500 ISO 640 ISO 800 ISO 1000 ISO 1250 ISO 1600 ISO 2000 ISO 2500 --- Sharpening Off Low Standard Medium High High --- Colour Saturation Low Medium Low Standard Medium High High Black & White Vintage B&W --- Contrast Low Medium Low Standard Medium High High --- Bracketing setup - No. Of Exposures 3 5 7 - Sequence 0/+/- -/0+ - Ev Increments 0.5EV 1 EV 1.5 EV 2 EV --- Exposure Comp Setup SET menu only Setting ring Set. Ring & Rel. But. --- Monitor Brightness Low Medium Low Standard Medium High High --- Histogram - Standard - RGB - Clipping Setup Off Over exposure only Over / Underexposure --- Folder managem. ? --- Auto review - Duration Off 1s 3s 5s Permanent Rel. Button Pressed - Histogram On Off --- Auto Power Off 1 min 2 min 5 min 10 min Off --- Flash Sync 1st Curtain 2nd Curtain --- Auto Slow Sync Lens Dependant Off (1/180s) down to 1/30s down to 1/8s down to 32s --- Color Management sRGB Adobe RGB --- DNG Setup Uncompressed Compressed --- Reset ? Sensor Cleaning ? Date ? Time ? --- Acoustic Signal - Volume Off Low High - Keyclick Off On - SD card full Off On --- Language (doesn't seem to work properly) English German French Italian Spanish Japanese Trad. Chinese --- USB Connection Mass Storage PTP --- Format SD card ? Firmware 1.162 or older, please fill in: ISO Button Items: Auto ISO PULL 80 ISO 160 ISO 200 ISO 250 ISO 320 ISO 400 ISO 500 ISO 640 ISO 800 ISO 1000 ISO 1250 ISO 1600 ISO 2000 ISO 2500 INFO Button Items: Battery, please estimate status in %: SD card, please estimate status in %: Remaining pictures, please fill in status: Shutter speed: Non applicable Lens, please fill in status: SET Button Items: White Balance Daylight Flash Cloudy Shade Manual Kelvin Setting?> --- Compression DNG JPG Fine JPG Basic DNG & JPG Fine DNG & JPG Basic --- Resolution 1MP 2MP 4.5MP 10MP 18MP --- Exposure Comp. -3 -2 2/3 -2 1/3 -2 -1 2/3 -1 1/3 -1 -2/3 -1/3 0 +1/3 +2/3 +1 +1 1/3 +1 2/3 +2 +2 1/3 +2 2/3 +3 --- EXP Bracketing Off On --- Set User profile ? Ambient Temperature, please estimate: freezing cool room Temperature warm hot Symptom Description & Additional Comments: Please describe as detailed as possible, what happened (did you do) before the problem, during the problem episode, and afterwards to get your M9 back into functioning semi-correctly. --- Did you subsequently investigate your memory card thoroughly? Format it? Check it out on a computer, another camera? --- After formatting with Overwrite in M9 is the situation back to normal - whatever that means? How long did the format take? Please, post in this thread corrections and additions. I will incorporate them for a final version of this proposal. Thanks. Obviously, we also need to flesh out and agree upon how to properly and correctly examine a memory card to establish its status. But that's another exercise. Cheers, K-H Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2011 Share #85 Posted July 31, 2011 I cannot imagine anybody filling out such a list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted July 31, 2011 Share #86 Posted July 31, 2011 I cannot imagine anybody filling out such a list. Jaap, Yup, we'll see. Not many for sure. I certainly will. I also want to give an example of what a systematic effort may require. I hope Andreas and Leica will trim this list way down according to Leica's requirements. But we hopefully give them enough info not to overlook something obvious. Such a template, including a reduced version, should also be handy once Leica has issued a new firmware version hopefully soon. It would be nice to know which parameter sets are most suspect and need specific attention. Thanks, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted July 31, 2011 Share #87 Posted July 31, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi Karl-Heinz--yes, it's the original 85 1.4 Nikkor that has the problem. With that lens in place, my D3 has been the least reliable camera I've ever used, and Nikon can't seem to fix it... The answer appears to be "buy the newer version lens" but I have other things slated for that $$ Anyway, back on topic, I tried to make my M9 fail this morning in C mode. Nothing doing...it worked well full buffer or no. BTW--why do people even put cheap cards in their M9? A system is only as good as the weakest link in the chain, and storage isn't a particularly easy task to accomplish. I wonder if the S2 and the Fujitsu processing stream experiences the same issues? Hi Jamie, Thanks. I agree completely with that. Best, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 31, 2011 Share #88 Posted July 31, 2011 Jaap, Yup, we'll see. Not many for sure. I certainly will. I also want to give an example of what a systematic effort may require. I hope Andreas and Leica will trim this list way down according to Leica's requirements. But we hopefully give them enough info not to overlook something obvious. Such a template, including a reduced version, should also be handy once Leica has issued a new firmware version hopefully soon. It would be nice to know which parameter sets are most suspect and need specific attention. Thanks, K-H. Let's hold our horses until Andreas/Leica have set out a framework. It is all a bit of a waste of effort right now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_M Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share #89 Posted August 1, 2011 I must agree that the length of the list seems overwhelming. You should know by now that I'm willing to put in considerable time and effort in tests and writing explanations. At the same time, I'd be reluctant to spend the time filling out such a long list. Just a personal response, so take it for what it's worth. (Actually, a technology financial fund manager once told me that the value of advice is worth what you paid for it. Since these comments are free, you know how valuable they are....) I'd suggest a much shorter list which is easy to apply check marks or fill in the blanks. It is an excellent idea to get some input from Leica as to what they want as feedback (I do hope they want feedback). RM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_M Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share #90 Posted August 1, 2011 Well, I had tried the continuous shooting test this morning. Oddly enough, I had actually done this before reading the last few pages of this thread. I had been interested in if my M9 really did 2 fps continuous shooting. I never use this mode and wanted to know. Relevant parameters: C mode ISO 160 no bracketing shutter speed 4000 Sandisk Ultra 16 GB card (latest generation) about 1/2 full DNG full only (no compress, no jpg) 1) I fired off 7 shots before it stopped. Time was about 3.5 to 4 sec (just using my watch to measure). Fine. Did not continue to hold shutter button. IMPORTANT (I think): Battery began as 1/4 full. And then the camera went on and on and on and on with the blinking light. I got tired of this after several minutes and pulled the battery to stop and reboot. Tried another battery. Took many tries and many attempts to revive the camera at all! By this I mean that there was absolutely no response in coming back to life. Finally, with a full battery, it came back alive and resumed where it had left off before I tried the test. There was absolutely no image recorded. You can imagine my heart skipped a few beats and I thought that enough is enough of testing. For awhile, it seemed that the camera had been killed completely! 2) Well, I then read the above 2 pages of posts and thought that this is not an unreasonable test after all. So with a fresh battery (95% full), I did the same test again. Brave of me (or am I just foolish:rolleyes:)? This time I also held down the shutter button to measure the following frames. If I measured right, 7 frames and then pause for about 20 sec (again, a watch and my reading error). following frames at intervals of about 8 sec 10 frames total and all got recorded. I think this conforms to what is expected. However, there was one anomaly. After I released the shutter button, the blinking light went on adn on and on. I got impatient after a couple of minutes and then changed the switch from C to S and the blinking stopped. Coincidence or causal effect, I don't know. I have the sneaky hunch that the battery level has something to do with the problems. That is not unreasonable. I will note that at 25% level, the M9 will not let one reformat a memory card in overwrite mode (it rightfully tells you that the level is too low). So maybe.... For what it's worth. RM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_M Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share #91 Posted August 1, 2011 Way back on the original postings of this thread and comments to K-H about a similar test in Mac OS...... Well, you will recall the original posting of H2testw testing in MS windows and the failure. I found a similar, simple test in Mac OS and it fails the same way. I did this testing on a recent Mac Mini with Leopard OS. - Use the utility in the Mac OS called Disk Utility. - Use the settings which will do a secure erase which write "0" to all locations (once, don't bother with the extra repeated writing of "0"). This test is simply writing a 0 to all locations on the SD card memory to securely erase the entire contents so it can never be recovered. This is a very simple write task, but all done continuously. - First do this secure erase to an SD card through a card reader. In my case, I used the same card as #7 in my previous testing (a vintage Sandisk Ultra II 2 GB). This works fine and has no problems. - Next, put the M9 in mass storage mode. Put the same card in the M9. Format the card in the M9 (if you wish, but really this is not relevant - yes I did do this). - Now try the same secure erase. Again, through the M9, the task failed badly. It all crashed in the last 10% of the card size. It did work fine up to that point. This is the same as before using H2testw and windows xp. Actually, it failed worse than before since it seems to have completely crashed the critical knowledge of the format structure of the SD card. I also found that Mac OS can not recover or recognize the card with the formatting gone. The M9 also thinks there is no card when inserted. A windows OS computer and a Linux system will happily reformat the card. Also, an old Canon G9 (vintage 2007) will see the card as a "card error" but will reformat it. Now isn't that interesting: A 4 year old Canon "point and shoot" does a better job of recognizing and formating a really bland SD card than Mac OS. Go figure. After reformatting the card, all is well. As I contended before, these are different tests than K-H did by filling his card in steps. What is the difference? These tests are continuous, sequential writing tests to the card. His test filled the card in various ways with stoppages and camera power off in between. Again, this configuration will only test the USB and SD card interfaces in the M9. All the image processing functions are not used (unless I mess something). But that is the point: isolate the test to a particular function. And, this is now tested with 2 different computers and 2 different OS's. What I see is that the M9 can not complete a continuous sequential write to the SD card via the USB interface. This is a fundamental requirement of a "mass storage" device. Remember, Leica does say that the M9 can be used in mass storage device mode (see the manual). Maybe my M9 is different? Maybe it depends on various cards (but I'm not about to continue testing 20 different cards). I did use a simple, Sandisk, 2 GB card for this test - one of the least troublesome of any reports. I welcome others to try one of these tests. I'm disappointed that no one else has reported repeating one of these simple tests of the interface. RM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted August 1, 2011 Share #92 Posted August 1, 2011 Way back on the original postings of this thread and comments to K-H about a similar test in Mac OS...... Well, you will recall the original posting of H2testw testing in MS windows and the failure. I found a similar, simple test in Mac OS and it fails the same way. I did this testing on a recent Mac Mini with Leopard OS. - Use the utility in the Mac OS called Disk Utility. - Use the settings which will do a secure erase which write "0" to all locations (once, don't bother with the extra repeated writing of "0"). This test is simply writing a 0 to all locations on the SD card memory to securely erase the entire contents so it can never be recovered. This is a very simple write task, but all done continuously. - First do this secure erase to an SD card through a card reader. In my case, I used the same card as #7 in my previous testing (a vintage Sandisk Ultra II 2 GB). This works fine and has no problems. - Next, put the M9 in mass storage mode. Put the same card in the M9. Format the card in the M9 (if you wish, but really this is not relevant - yes I did do this). - Now try the same secure erase. Again, through the M9, the task failed badly. It all crashed in the last 10% of the card size. It did work fine up to that point. This is the same as before using H2testw and windows xp. Actually, it failed worse than before since it seems to have completely crashed the critical knowledge of the format structure of the SD card. I also found that Mac OS can not recover or recognize the card with the formatting gone. The M9 also thinks there is no card when inserted. A windows OS computer and a Linux system will happily reformat the card. Also, an old Canon G9 (vintage 2007) will see the card as a "card error" but will reformat it. Now isn't that interesting: A 4 year old Canon "point and shoot" does a better job of recognizing and formating a really bland SD card than Mac OS. Go figure. After reformatting the card, all is well. As I contended before, these are different tests than K-H did by filling his card in steps. What is the difference? These tests are continuous, sequential writing tests to the card. His test filled the card in various ways with stoppages and camera power off in between. Again, this configuration will only test the USB and SD card interfaces in the M9. All the image processing functions are not used (unless I mess something). But that is the point: isolate the test to a particular function. And, this is now tested with 2 different computers and 2 different OS's. What I see is that the M9 can not complete a continuous sequential write to the SD card via the USB interface. This is a fundamental requirement of a "mass storage" device. Remember, Leica does say that the M9 can be used in mass storage device mode (see the manual). Maybe my M9 is different? Maybe it depends on various cards (but I'm not about to continue testing 20 different cards). I did use a simple, Sandisk, 2 GB card for this test - one of the least troublesome of any reports. I welcome others to try one of these tests. I'm disappointed that no one else has reported repeating one of these simple tests of the interface. RM I can confirm Robert's finding that the USB connected memory card in M9 fails to be reliably erased with zero overwrite with Disk Utility. However, I cannot confirm Robert's assertion "that the M9 can not complete a continuous sequential write to the SD card via the USB interface." Equipment used: • MacBook Pro with Mac OS Lion • Panasonic PASD8GBU1 8GB SDHC-UHS-I Memory Card • Delkin Devices DEMCRU30 USB 3.0 Universal Memory Card Reader Tests performed • Mount USB connected Mass storage memory card in M9 on Mac OS Lion, takes about one minute, much much longer than on Snow Leopard. • Erase card in Delkin with zero overwrite with Disk Utility on Mac, works. • Erase card in M9 via USB with zero overwrite with Disk Utility on Mac, fails towards the end. • Erase card in M9 via USB with zero overwrite with Disk Utility on Mac, fails badly earlier, card not recognized by M9 when USB cable removed. • Erase card in Delkin with zero overwrite with Disk Utility on Mac, fails. • Erase card in Delkin no overwrite with Disk Utility on Mac, works. • Erase card in M9 with Yes, card finally recognized by M9, works • Erase card in M9 with Overwrite, works. • Erase card in Delkin with zero overwrite with Disk Utility on Mac, works. • Erase card in M9 with Yes, works. • Shoot 10 images, works. • Mount USB connected Mass storage memory card in M9 on Mac OS Lion, takes about one minute. • All 10 images are okay. However • Drive Genius 3 on Mac successfully scans and shreds the entire via USB connected memory card in the M9 in one seemingly continuous operation. Subsequently Performed Tests • Erase card in M9 with Yes, works. • Erase card in M9 with Overwrite, works. K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 1, 2011 Share #93 Posted August 1, 2011 There really is no need to Quote the entire post immediately above yours... it just makes a thread twice as long and more difficult to read. Thanks. What Robert has done is, I suppose, interesting, but completely mad, IMHO. Who would even think about zeroing out a card, using Disk Utility, when the card is in a camera? Only in exceptional, extreme circumstances might one even think that this would be a great idea. The M9 mass storage mode is to allow downloading of images to your computer. It isn't designed to ape a card reader and I amazed that anyone might think that it would. I really do think that you are trying to find problems where there are none. I know that you are trying to push the M9/SD card interface as far as it will go, but to what purpose? Leica have said that they are working on the card write problem. They will, no doubt, have all sorts if diagnostic equipment available, as will their partners Jenoptik. I seriously believe that you are wasting your time here (which is your right, of course!) and it would be better to wait until Leica ask for specific information to help with the problem, rather than scatter gunning diagnostic tests which may be completely irrelevant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 1, 2011 Share #94 Posted August 1, 2011 Let's hold our horses until Andreas/Leica have set out a framework. It is all a bit of a waste of effort right now. I said that in the other thread covering this template. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 1, 2011 Share #95 Posted August 1, 2011 I'm disappointed that no one else has reported repeating one of these simple tests of the interface. RM Hardly surprising, seeing that the relevance of the test is unclear to anybody but maybe a sofware engineer with access to the codes of Leica's firmware, i.e.somebody from or working with Leica. I see there is a bit of cross-posting between moderators going on here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 1, 2011 Share #96 Posted August 1, 2011 You should know by now that I'm willing to put in considerable time and effort in tests and writing explanations. My advice would be to wait until a call to arms comes from Leica. You could easily be barking up the wrong tree here. Indeed, a fix for the write problem might be very simple, who knows? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 1, 2011 Share #97 Posted August 1, 2011 Hardly surprising, seeing that the relevance of the test is unclear to anybody but maybe a sofware engineer with access to the codes of Leica's firmware, i.e.somebody from or working with Leica I have been thinking that the test is akin to someone saving a DVD to an SD card, then wondering why it couldn't be played on a computer, via an M9. No doubt, someone will be along shortly to say that this is how they always watch DVDs on the road - when using their Fuji X100 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 1, 2011 Share #98 Posted August 1, 2011 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted August 1, 2011 Share #99 Posted August 1, 2011 I see there is a bit of cross-posting between moderators going on here Just trying to save people from a lot of potentially abortive work. I was going to suggest that people go and take some photos instead, but that's not possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted August 1, 2011 Share #100 Posted August 1, 2011 I am just trying out how many lines are required to fill in the entire template. Turns out, not bad at all in my assessment. Here goes M9 Serial Number please, don't show last 2 digits: 38038xx M9 firmware version, choose one: 1.162 Lens mounted, please describe uniquely: Tele-Elmarit-M 90/2.8 Memory card used, please describe uniquely: Panasonic PASD8GBU1 8GB SDHC-UHS-I Power switch set from OFF to: S Exposure wheel set to: A Menu Button items: Lens detection Manual 90 F/2.8 11800 Advance Standard Self Timer Off Auto ISO Setup Lens dependant Sharpening Standard Colour Saturation Standard Contrast Standard Bracketing setup 5 / -/0+ / 0.5EV Exposure Comp Setup Set. Ring & Rel. But. Monitor Brightness Standard Histogram RGB Over / Underexposure Folder managem. Leica Auto review Duration Permanent, Histogram On Auto Power Off Off Flash Sync 1st Curtain Auto Slow Sync Lens Dependant Color Management sRGB DNG Setup Compressed Acoustic Signal Volume Off Keyclick Off SD card full Off Language English USB Connection Mass Storage Firmware 1.162 ISO Button Items: ISO 160 INFO Button Items: Battery, please estimate status in %: 87% SD card, please estimate status in %: 98% Remaining pictures, please fill in status: 415 Lens, please fill in status: 90 f/2.8 SET Button Items: White Balance Auto Compression DNG Resolution 18MP Exposure Comp. 0 EXP Bracketing Off Ambient temperature, please estimate: room temperature Symptom Description & Additional Comments: Please describe as detailed as possible, what happened (did you do) before the problem, during the problem episode, and afterwards to get your M9 back into functioning semi-correctly. I take one shot, switch power off and on while red LED is blinking, result: all buttons in the back are dead. Works every time that way like a charm! To get the buttons functioning again, I either press the shutter or switch off and on again. BTW, images are all there and not corrupted. Did you subsequently investigate your memory card thoroughly? Format it? Check it out on a computer, another camera? No. After formatting with Overwrite in M9 is the situation back to normal - whatever that means? How long did the format take? Not Applicable I wonder whether my M9 is the only one that behaves that way? Cheers, K-H. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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