Colour Calibration Nightmare. Nurse required.

[Peter H]

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Please, someone, help me with my calibration conundrum. Its giving me migraines....

 

I regularly calibrate my iMac 27-inch monitor with my ColorMunki. It looks pretty good to me, and I can test it by taking a photo and displaying it on the monitor and the colours match the actual photographed object very accurately, and I can't think of a better straightforward test than that.

 

But I want to print equally accurate colours.

 

So, I then use the ColorMunki to create a profile for the paper I wish to use, and to keep it simple I start with Epson Premium Glossy. I apply this profile, and turn off the printer's color management as instructed. But when I print, (on an Epson R2880) I get horribly washed-out, anaemic and grossly undersaturated prints. The same thing happens whether I use LR, PS, or C1.

 

If, however, I use Adobe RGB as the profile and set the printer to apply Adobe RGB color management, I get almost perfect colours in my print.

 

So I'm able to produce very satisfactory prints, but I simply don't understand why or how this is happening. It sems to be the opposite of what ought to be happening.

 

Anyone know what special brand of stupidity I've come up with here?

 

Thank you.

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[jaapv]

Maybe you don't use convert to profile when you drop down from Adobe RGB to sRGB in photoshop?

You need to embed the new profile when you export the file to your printer.

[adan]

Just to make sure - as a part of making your printing profile, you print out a chart of color squares for the ColorMunki to measure, correct?

 

And when you make that print, you have ALL color management turned off, both in Photoshop and in the printer?

[delander †]

I use 27 inch imac and only use photoshop for printing so can only advise as follows:

 

You should have printer colour management switched off and you colormunki profile selected in the printer profile box. If it is coming out wrong I would suspect you colormunki paper profile. Why not try the Epson profile for your paper/printer combination? These can be downloaded from the Epson site and I find them to be excellent.

 

In photoshop you can softproof by going to view/proofsetup/custom and insert your colormunki profile in there, then choose proof colors from the view menu. See how it looks. You can also use the preview in the print dialogue box by ticking match print colors

Jeff

[archi4]

Good morning

One cause for an incorrect profile that comes to mind is that the patch chart you have printed is not entirely free of any color correction.

Try printing the test chart of color patches using the Adobe Color Printing Utility.

No Color Management option missing | Printing | Photoshop CS5

hope this helps

regards, maurice

[Peter H]

Thank you everyone for your kind replies.

 

Maybe you don't use convert to profile when you drop down from Adobe RGB to sRGB in photoshop?

You need to embed the new profile when you export the file to your printer.

 

Jaap, I don't go near sRGB unless going to web or email. Are you suggesting there's an sRGB application in the process I'm not aware of?

 

 

 

Just to make sure - as a part of making your printing profile, you print out a chart of color squares for the ColorMunki to measure, correct?

 

And when you make that print, you have ALL color management turned off, both in Photoshop and in the printer?

 

Correct. At least, that's my intention, so I shall run the process again and double and triple check at each stage. Again.

 

Good morning

One cause for an incorrect profile that comes to mind is that the patch chart you have printed is not entirely free of any color correction.

Try printing the test chart of color patches using the Adobe Color Printing Utility.

No Color Management option missing | Printing | Photoshop CS5

hope this helps

regards, maurice

 

Thanks Maurice, I shall give this a try too.

[Peter H]

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Thank you everyone for your kind replies.

 

Maybe you don't use convert to profile when you drop down from Adobe RGB to sRGB in photoshop?

You need to embed the new profile when you export the file to your printer.

 

Jaap, I don't go near sRGB unless going to web or email. Are you suggesting there's an sRGB application in the process I'm not aware of?

 

 

 

Just to make sure - as a part of making your printing profile, you print out a chart of color squares for the ColorMunki to measure, correct?

 

And when you make that print, you have ALL color management turned off, both in Photoshop and in the printer?

 

Correct. At least, that's my intention, so I shall run the process again and double and triple check at each stage. Again.

 

Good morning

One cause for an incorrect profile that comes to mind is that the patch chart you have printed is not entirely free of any color correction.

Try printing the test chart of color patches using the Adobe Color Printing Utility.

No Color Management option missing | Printing | Photoshop CS5

hope this helps

regards, maurice

 

Thanks Maurice, I shall give this a try too.

[Peter H]

I use 27 inch imac and only use photoshop for printing so can only advise as follows:

 

You should have printer colour management switched off and you colormunki profile selected in the printer profile box. If it is coming out wrong I would suspect you colormunki paper profile. Why not try the Epson profile for your paper/printer combination? These can be downloaded from the Epson site and I find them to be excellent.

 

In photoshop you can softproof by going to view/proofsetup/custom and insert your colormunki profile in there, then choose proof colors from the view menu. See how it looks. You can also use the preview in the print dialogue box by ticking match print colors

Jeff

 

Thank you Jeff. I've tried the Epson profiles - same outcome. Even softproofing is no good - very little resemblence to the actual proint.

 

I do suspect that I'm not correctly removing all profiling from the calibration process, because its the only thing that I can think of that would produce this total mismatch between everything on screen and print, excepting the AdobeRGB set.

 

But if this is correct, I have no idea how its happening since I'm trying very hard to follow instructions to the letter.

 

This, by the way, has been going on for years! I've perfected an imperfect method for obtaining very good prints, but I know its wrong and sub-optimum, so I'm determined to crack it once and for all. Until i change camera, computer, monitor, printer, paper, or underpants that is.

[Peter H]

I use 27 inch imac and only use photoshop for printing so can only advise as follows:

 

You should have printer colour management switched off and you colormunki profile selected in the printer profile box. If it is coming out wrong I would suspect you colormunki paper profile. Why not try the Epson profile for your paper/printer combination? These can be downloaded from the Epson site and I find them to be excellent.

 

In photoshop you can softproof by going to view/proofsetup/custom and insert your colormunki profile in there, then choose proof colors from the view menu. See how it looks. You can also use the preview in the print dialogue box by ticking match print colors

Jeff

 

Thank you Jeff. I've tried the Epson profiles - same outcome. Even softproofing is no good - very little resemblence to the actual proint.

 

I do suspect that I'm not correctly removing all profiling from the calibration process, because its the only thing that I can think of that would produce this total mismatch between everything on screen and print, excepting the AdobeRGB set.

 

But if this is correct, I have no idea how its happening since I'm trying very hard to follow instructions to the letter.

 

This, by the way, has been going on for years! I've perfected an imperfect method for obtaining very good prints, but I know its wrong and sub-optimum, so I'm determined to crack it once and for all. Until i change camera, computer, monitor, printer, paper, or underpants that is.

[adan]

I was going to ask about what happens with Epson's own profiles, but you've covered that now. So you have a general problem with printing color management using any profile.

 

I have a 27" iMac, and get a good match between my screen and my prints. These are what my printing dialogue boxes look like (CS4, and Epson 3800; the Photoshop dialogue and two "panes" of the system-wide Epson dialogue). Do yours all look the same?

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[adan]

I was going to ask about what happens with Epson's own profiles, but you've covered that now. So you have a general problem with printing color management using any profile.

 

I have a 27" iMac, and get a good match between my screen and my prints. These are what my printing dialogue boxes look like (CS4, and Epson 3800; the Photoshop dialogue and two "panes" of the system-wide Epson dialogue). Do yours all look the same?

[Peter H]

Andy, I'm extremely grateful and appreciative of the effort you're taking here. Thank you so much.

 

Well, the difference between my settings and yours is that in the large PS pane, in the Color Handling box, I had it set for No Color Management. On reflection, this looks like a fairly basic and fundamental error. So, having changed it to your setting, and inserting the profile I had created for the paper I'm using, I now get a better, but rather oversaturated image. If I use a supplied Epson profile, or any other profile, its back to grossly undersaturated.

 

Do you think this suggests that my calibrating is close, but still at fault? I'd like to re-calibrate again,but I'm reluctant to keep adding variables until I understand what I'm doing!

[Peter H]

Andy, I'm extremely grateful and appreciative of the effort you're taking here. Thank you so much.

 

Well, the difference between my settings and yours is that in the large PS pane, in the Color Handling box, I had it set for No Color Management. On reflection, this looks like a fairly basic and fundamental error. So, having changed it to your setting, and inserting the profile I had created for the paper I'm using, I now get a better, but rather oversaturated image. If I use a supplied Epson profile, or any other profile, its back to grossly undersaturated.

 

Do you think this suggests that my calibrating is close, but still at fault? I'd like to re-calibrate again,but I'm reluctant to keep adding variables until I understand what I'm doing!

[jaapv]

Sorry. I got the impression from yourremark that you found Adobe RGB to be correct.

Thank you everyone for your kind replies.

 

 

 

Jaap, I don't go near sRGB unless going to web or email. Are you suggesting there's an sRGB application in the process I'm not aware of?

 

 

 

 

 

Correct. At least, that's my intention, so I shall run the process again and double and triple check at each stage. Again.

 

 

 

Thanks Maurice, I shall give this a try too.

[jaapv]

Sorry. I got the impression from yourremark that you found Adobe RGB to be correct.

Thank you everyone for your kind replies.

 

 

 

Jaap, I don't go near sRGB unless going to web or email. Are you suggesting there's an sRGB application in the process I'm not aware of?

 

 

 

 

 

Correct. At least, that's my intention, so I shall run the process again and double and triple check at each stage. Again.

 

 

 

Thanks Maurice, I shall give this a try too.

[Peter H]

Sorry. I got the impression from yourremark that you found Adobe RGB to be correct.

 

Jaap - please don't be sorry - it's me whose making the mistakes here, and you're trying to help, so I should be saying sorry.

 

But i think you're assuming I have greater understanding of the issues than I actually do. I don't understand, for example, why you're drawing a connection between the Adobe RGB profile, which seems to work for me better than my own profiles (another thing I fail to understand!), and sRGB, which I don't use at all for these purposes.

 

It suggests to me that there's a connection between sRGB and AdobeRGB that I'm missing. I thought they were simply different colour spaces.

[Peter H]

Sorry. I got the impression from yourremark that you found Adobe RGB to be correct.

 

Jaap - please don't be sorry - it's me whose making the mistakes here, and you're trying to help, so I should be saying sorry.

 

But i think you're assuming I have greater understanding of the issues than I actually do. I don't understand, for example, why you're drawing a connection between the Adobe RGB profile, which seems to work for me better than my own profiles (another thing I fail to understand!), and sRGB, which I don't use at all for these purposes.

 

It suggests to me that there's a connection between sRGB and AdobeRGB that I'm missing. I thought they were simply different colour spaces.

[adan]

My settings work with Epson's supplied profiles (in fact that's all I use), so if you're still having trouble printing with those, there must be something else going on in addition.

 

One crucial point is that, regardless of where the Color Management takes place, the printer must still be set up for the right "Media Type". I use Epson Premium Photo Paper Luster for any non-matte paper (and don't use matte papers at all) - but Epson Premium Glossy is not much different, so long as you always use just one.

 

"Media Type" and "Output Resolution" both affect how much ink is laid down (and whether the printer uses its Matte Black or Photo Black ink) - regardless of what color management is superimposed on top of them.

 

And more importantly - you need to have EVERYTHING in your Epson print boxes (Media Type, Print Mode, 16 bit output on/off, Color Mode, Output Resolution) set up the way you will eventually use them - WHEN you do your ColorMunki profile test print. Because your profile will only be valid for the exact same settings used for the profiling test print.

 

In other words, you need to first go through all the possible things you can set, in both Photoshop, and in the printer dialogue boxes, and make sure every single option is set the way you will use it in the future. Then save those options as a "Preset" and never change them again.

 

I'd try this - ignore ColorMunki for the moment, and go back to using a canned Epson profile and Photoshop Color Management. And try to find settings in the Epson printing dialogues (other than "Color Mode" - which should remain set to "OFF (No Color Management") that work right with the Epson profiles. Once you can get good prints from the Epson profiles, THEN lock in all the settings, and use those as the basis for making a ColorMunki profile. That way, you know ColorMunki is taking into account the underlying printing settings (which WILL affect the output).

 

I.E. you want to reduce things to the point that the only variable in your printing process is which profile you choose - everything else is locked in and never changes.

_________________________

 

BTW - if you ever print an image that is true B&W (only a black channel, as in a B&W film scan) - Photoshop will switch that Color Handling line-item back to "No color management" - and will NOT set it back to "Photoshop Manages Colors" automatically if you switch to a color picture. It will also reset the Printer Profile to your working color space - and leave it there until you dig through the miles-long list to find the correct "real" paper profile.

 

A little "land-mine" that tripped me up a few times until I caught on - I now make sure all my B&W pictures are RGB files, even if they are monochrome, to avoid PS changing that setting on the sly.

________________

 

Finally - what lighting are you using for viewing your prints? My Epson prints always look a tad dark unless viewed in something close to direct sunlight. For some reason, inkjet prints seem to change their apparent brightness a lot more under different light than do chemical photo prints.

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[adan]

My settings work with Epson's supplied profiles (in fact that's all I use), so if you're still having trouble printing with those, there must be something else going on in addition.

 

One crucial point is that, regardless of where the Color Management takes place, the printer must still be set up for the right "Media Type". I use Epson Premium Photo Paper Luster for any non-matte paper (and don't use matte papers at all) - but Epson Premium Glossy is not much different, so long as you always use just one.

 

"Media Type" and "Output Resolution" both affect how much ink is laid down (and whether the printer uses its Matte Black or Photo Black ink) - regardless of what color management is superimposed on top of them.

 

And more importantly - you need to have EVERYTHING in your Epson print boxes (Media Type, Print Mode, 16 bit output on/off, Color Mode, Output Resolution) set up the way you will eventually use them - WHEN you do your ColorMunki profile test print. Because your profile will only be valid for the exact same settings used for the profiling test print.

 

In other words, you need to first go through all the possible things you can set, in both Photoshop, and in the printer dialogue boxes, and make sure every single option is set the way you will use it in the future. Then save those options as a "Preset" and never change them again.

 

I'd try this - ignore ColorMunki for the moment, and go back to using a canned Epson profile and Photoshop Color Management. And try to find settings in the Epson printing dialogues (other than "Color Mode" - which should remain set to "OFF (No Color Management") that work right with the Epson profiles. Once you can get good prints from the Epson profiles, THEN lock in all the settings, and use those as the basis for making a ColorMunki profile. That way, you know ColorMunki is taking into account the underlying printing settings (which WILL affect the output).

 

I.E. you want to reduce things to the point that the only variable in your printing process is which profile you choose - everything else is locked in and never changes.

_________________________

 

BTW - if you ever print an image that is true B&W (only a black channel, as in a B&W film scan) - Photoshop will switch that Color Handling line-item back to "No color management" - and will NOT set it back to "Photoshop Manages Colors" automatically if you switch to a color picture. It will also reset the Printer Profile to your working color space - and leave it there until you dig through the miles-long list to find the correct "real" paper profile.

 

A little "land-mine" that tripped me up a few times until I caught on - I now make sure all my B&W pictures are RGB files, even if they are monochrome, to avoid PS changing that setting on the sly.

________________

 

Finally - what lighting are you using for viewing your prints? My Epson prints always look a tad dark unless viewed in something close to direct sunlight. For some reason, inkjet prints seem to change their apparent brightness a lot more under different light than do chemical photo prints.

[Peter H]

Thank you again Andy - I shall try these things tomorrow when I hope to have the time to do it properly.

 

Its tremendously reassuring to know that there's someone around who has been through all this before, and is prepared to share the benefit of their wisdom and experience. Many, many thanks.