M'Ate Posted June 22, 2011 Share #21 Posted June 22, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) OK Edmond, apologies for that. I'll scold my source for that. Getting back to the crux of your piece, you stated: "In my opinion, the M9-P is definitely aimed more towards the pro who uses his camera as a tool" I ask you again to answer why your so definite on this. Most all, pro and enthusiast Leica owners like this M9-P a lot. We want one, that's a given, OK. But you are making it clear that it's especially suited, more than the M9, for use as a tool by the pro. Ignoring the badge, which has been answered, what is it you're referring to. The rest of the article has been stated by Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 22, 2011 Posted June 22, 2011 Hi M'Ate, Take a look here A Few Thoughts On The Leica Announcements. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
SJP Posted June 22, 2011 Share #22 Posted June 22, 2011 Thanks Stephen. Just to check I understand you correctly, you are saying if I was a pro photographer I would share your point? Yes More importantly, why would a professional photographer care at all? I drive a Ferrari so suddenly I have become a F1 driver? Neither statement is true of course. This discussion is not worth the oxygen we have left on this planet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmond_terakopian Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share #23 Posted June 22, 2011 OK Edmond' date=' apologies for that. I'll scold my source for that. Getting back to the crux of your piece, you stated: "In my opinion, the M9-P is definitely aimed more towards the pro who uses his camera as a tool" I ask you again to answer why your so definite on this. Most all, pro and enthusiast Leica owners like this M9-P a lot. We want one, that's a given, OK. But you are making it clear that it's especially suited, more than the M9, for use as a tool by the pro. Ignoring the badge, which has been answered, what is it you're referring to. The rest of the article has been stated by Leica.[/quote'] Firstly, my blog and therefor my opinion! The lack of a badge or and lettering on the front, I've explained. The second point which I also explained in my short article is that it's a tougher camera - much less chance of breaking the rear LCD. Forgetting that I have an M9 and will hopefully get an M9-P once funds allow, if I were to choose between the two models now, I would go for the M9-P, for the reasons I have stated. A photo enthusiast follower on Twitter was shocked at the lack of a red badge, with a comment along the lines of "if I pay that much for a camera, I want a red badge on it" - it is the opposite for me. I want the amazing lenses and the sturdy and small body - it's image quality and subtleness which interest me. I find the M9-P even more subtle and tougher. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmond_terakopian Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share #24 Posted June 22, 2011 Yes More importantly, why would a professional photographer care at all? I drive a Ferrari so suddenly I have become a F1 driver? Neither statement is true of course. This discussion is not worth the oxygen we have left on this planet. Stephen, I would suggest you read the 'about' section and then the 'CV' section on my website: Edmond Terakopian: Photojournalist It is exactly that - a pro generally doesn't care, therefore a more subtle camera, without a red dot which is known to be costly, and one which is tougher, is more desirable as a working tool. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Valdemar Posted June 23, 2011 Share #25 Posted June 23, 2011 Much ado about nothing. I seriously doubt whether the new M9-P will make any difference at all to the public at large in terms of brand recognition or not. All this logo-taping and "stealth" business is just a fantasy. You want to feel superior because you own "superior" equipment, then you hide the logo so you can pretend to be a ninja. Robbers don't care if you wrap your camera up like a mummy. They will grab anything, it's a crime of opportunity. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted June 23, 2011 Share #26 Posted June 23, 2011 Stephen <snip> working tool.Everything seems to start with "he" - there is name for that but I have forgotten what it was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmond_terakopian Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share #27 Posted June 23, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Everything seems to start with "he" - there is name for that but I have forgotten what it was. I'm sure you haven't, but good to see that some manners are at last being used. My website was done by a web designer and that's how he chose to do it. You have complaints about that too eh? I'm guessing all of this is more telling about your state of mind. Also interesting that you haven't addressed the 'if I was a professional I'd understand' stance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted June 23, 2011 Share #28 Posted June 23, 2011 The second point which I also explained in my short article is that it's a tougher camera - much less chance of breaking the rear LCD. I have an M8 and an M8-2. To be perfectly honest I don't see the tougher screen on the M8-2 being a big deal as I've only one small scratch on the M8 screen. Whilst I work with my cameras I also take as much care of them as I am able to - it is a real myth that pros 'hammer' their cameras - I certainly don't and nor do any of my colleagues - we can't afford to have a camera fail on us because of (pointless) abuse. That said I CAN see photojournalists appreciating a tougher screen as they are potentially working in a more hectic environment than most. On the subject of badges, I've given up bothering overmuch about anything but my cameras looking 'stock', but the M is an iconic design and I fully appreciate that to some, subtleties do matter. Suggesting that appearance is irrelevant is clearly not correct as evidenced here on this forum. Brand recognition I would say, is now driven by advertising ad since Leica seems to advertise in places where the adverts will be seen by photo enthusiasts, then I would say they are most likely to be the only people who will be in 'the know' about Leicas. The M9-P looks nice to me but I'm far more enthused about the 21/3.4 personally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted June 23, 2011 Share #29 Posted June 23, 2011 The forum would be more useful if people would restrain from making it a discussion club about what they dislike about others. It's a forum for sharing experience and viewpoints that could be of mutual interest and help to others. Whenever a discussion starts about red dots or not ... I mean [WTF] is the point? Why would one engage in a discussion about red dots if one is happy to have them and others prefer to not have them. You expect to win the discussion? Edmond is currently the only World Press Photo winner who blogs about Leica and participate actively in this forum. I actually happen to think his opinion is valuable and that he should be shown respect no matter if you agree or disagree. In fact I think all members of the forum should be shown respect. Some times it's a good idea to read others viewpoint, and instead of instantly disagree, try to sleep on them for a while. And if of no use or you don't agree, leave it at that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmond_terakopian Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share #30 Posted June 23, 2011 The forum would be more useful if people would restrain from making it a discussion club about what they dislike about others. It's a forum for sharing experience and viewpoints that could be of mutual interest and help to others. Whenever a discussion starts about red dots or not ... I mean [WTF] is the point? Why would one engage in a discussion about red dots if one is happy to have them and others prefer to not have them. You expect to win the discussion? Edmond is currently the only World Press Photo winner who blogs about Leica and participate actively in this forum. I actually happen to think his opinion is valuable and that he should be shown respect no matter if you agree or disagree. In fact I think all members of the forum should be shown respect. Some times it's a good idea to read others viewpoint, and instead of instantly disagree, try to sleep on them for a while. And if of no use or you don't agree, leave it at that. Thanks Thorsten for your kind words and also your words of wisdom. Much Appreciated, Edmond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted June 23, 2011 Share #31 Posted June 23, 2011 OK, I agree that I was being (overly) beligerent. Maybe I should shut up sometimes. I would like to apologise, especially to Edmond. And yes I do respect your photographic skills that are way above anything I produce. Still I am disappointed that it seems necessary to invoke credentials to discuss stuff. It is only a logo & only a (very good) camera. Nothing more & nothing less. Maybe that is just me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
delander † Posted June 23, 2011 Share #32 Posted June 23, 2011 Still I am disappointed that it seems necessary to invoke credentials to discuss stuff. I agree. Edmond wrote in his reply to Wattsy 'I'd appreciate a little bit more respect'. I wondered why he felt the need to make that comment. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 23, 2011 Share #33 Posted June 23, 2011 I agree. Edmond wrote in his reply to Wattsy 'I'd appreciate a little bit more respect'.I wondered why he felt the need to make that comment. Jeff Because he was offended. It's very easy to type off quick riposte, without really thinking about it, or perhaps thinking about it, but in the wrong context. Edmond wrote a blog - his opinion. He is not just entitled to an opinion, but it carries some weight - with more than a little justification. This isn't handbags at dawn, it's just politeness. What happens in forums (I moderate a 21,000 member paragliding forum) is that posters genuinely interested in the topic or the discussion generally add value. Lurking among them are people who like to provoke. We know who they are, and they become tolerated with time. There are then the enthusiasts who exercise no self moderation at all, and they just post everywhere. And then there are the trollers. What can happen is that the noise level gets a little high, or the excitement, and posters get a little jaded - they post off the top of their heads to snipe or entertain at other's expense. We all do it from time to time. Criticism is fine, to a point; and there can be consequences. The noise ratio then goes up. So, I tend to say to myself - don't post what you wouldn't say to the person's face. Internet discussions are not about consensus - they'd be very boring if they were. So, be prepared to have people say things you don't agree with, often in ways you don't like. But, treat everyone with a little respect, and the discussion usually becomes interesting again - PollyAnnerish, I know, but it works for me. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted June 23, 2011 Share #34 Posted June 23, 2011 Because he was offended. It's very easy to type off quick riposte, without really thinking about it, or perhaps thinking about it, but in the wrong context... I don't think Ian's post was excessive or rude, at all. I also think the M9-P is gorgeous - but the suggestion that a pro photographer should buy a more expensive camera to take to the "unsavoury" parts of town sounds like the sort of spin I use on my partner when I'm justifying my next lens purchase, to be frank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 23, 2011 Share #35 Posted June 23, 2011 I don't think Ian's post was excessive or rude, at all. You might not, but he clearly did. I thought it was off-hand, but what i think doesn't really matter. I would never try to justify buying such a camera to my wife - I know it would never work. Cheers John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmond_terakopian Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share #36 Posted June 23, 2011 OK, I agree that I was being (overly) beligerent. Maybe I should shut up sometimes. I would like to apologise, especially to Edmond. And yes I do respect your photographic skills that are way above anything I produce. Still I am disappointed that it seems necessary to invoke credentials to discuss stuff. It is only a logo & only a (very good) camera. Nothing more & nothing less. Maybe that is just me. Thanks Stephen, apology accepted. I only had to point this out as your comments were telling me what photojournalists think and that my opinion (based on facts and observations) were not valid as I was clearly not a pro and wouldn't understand. Regards, Edmond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmond_terakopian Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share #37 Posted June 23, 2011 I don't think Ian's post was excessive or rude, at all. I also think the M9-P is gorgeous - but the suggestion that a pro photographer should buy a more expensive camera to take to the "unsavoury" parts of town sounds like the sort of spin I use on my partner when I'm justifying my next lens purchase, to be frank. That is fine and it's your opinion. For me "swallowing the Leica marketing spin seems a bit silly" is insulting both my intelligence and experience as a photographer. Opinions are fine and that's what makes life interesting; being able to discuss and open one's mind to other points of view, even if they are not shared. There is no need for rudeness; we are only talking about cameras and for me, these are tools. I choose Leica simply because it is the best and works for me and the way I like to work. The comment about buying a more expensive camera, isn't because it's more expensive, but because it is more subtle and also tougher. Relatively speaking the expense when the cost of an M9 is taken into account, is negligible. In my short article I never suggested one should buy the more expensive camera! Again, it's not spin; I don't have to justify to anyone what my purchases are (ok, sometimes the accountant grumbles) and I'm certainly not trying to push my opinion onto anyone. Consensus seems to be it's a lovely looking camera anyway. I think so too; for me the added bonus is it's subtle and it's tougher. Simple! Edmond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted June 24, 2011 Share #38 Posted June 24, 2011 Well said Edmond When I used to earn my living as a photographer I wanted the best I could afford mechanically and that the camera was practical. I have always covered my camera logos with tape be it on the front side or wherever. I just don't like to advertise (in the same way I hate logos on clothing camera bags etc). so really the only thing that would make the camera of interest to me from a work point of view is the sapphire screen. ON the other hand the M9-p is an object of beauty and will definitely wear better, at least the chrome one will, than the standard M9 so may hold its price a little better. so If money was no object I would get one, if money was tight or I was working photographer I would put the money towards a new lens Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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