M9 1.162 Firmware Bug (and/or just a broken M9)?

[wlaidlaw]

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earful,

 

Excellent point. I agree.

 

Here is a quote from the M9 Instructions_en.pdf:

 

" The range of SD/SDHC cards available is too exten- sive for Leica Camera AG to fully test all available types for compatibility and quality. Therefore, we recommend for example the “Extreme III” or “Pro- fessional” cards from the leading brands “SanDisk” and “Lexar”. "

 

So, you got me curious what card I really have in the M9.

On my invoice, 12/28/09 from B&H, it says:

 

Item Description: SANDISK EXTREME III SDHC (30MB/S) 16GB

SKU#: SAE3SD16GBC

Item Price: 114.99

 

So, I have examined my card. The markings are:

 

SanDisk

Extreme

30 MB/s

SDHC

10 (inside a C sign)

16GB

SanDisk

 

Hmmm? When I search the current B&H website for SAE3SD16GBC I get the following:

 

Search Results We're sorry. No items were found matching your search request for"SAE3SD16GBC".

 

I always thought the E3 in SAE3SD16GBC indicated an Extreme III. I have a hard time believing it's not an Extreme III. But maybe not.

 

Does somebody know whether my card actually is an Extreme III or not?

 

On the B&H website, if I follow the accessories link on the Leica M9 page, it again leads to a SanDisk card marked Extreme and not Extremme III.

 

Would the following card fall within Leica's recommendation for the M9?

 

SanDisk 32GB Extreme Pro SDHC UHS-I Memory SDSDXP1-032G-A75 B&H

 

Can somebody please refer me to a URL with an SDHC card satisfying Leica's recommendation for sure?

 

Best, K-H.

 

K-H,

 

I think that SanDisk offer a card genuine-ness device on their website. On the other hand, unless they have been caught by a crooked wholesaler, I cannot believe that B&H (for all their other faults) would knowingly sell you a fake card.

 

Wilson

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[wlaidlaw]

When the M9 first came out a number of people pointed out that the cheaper Ultra II Sandisk cards worked faster than the more expensive Extreme III. On that basis I was very happy to buy and use 3 x 16GB Ultra II cards. I tested these cards extensively on 1.160 and the foregoing beta softwares on all imaging modes and continuous etc, with no issues. I can therefore safely recommend them. I don't recall anyone reporting issues with any other cards but it may have been Murphy's law that none of us were using Extreme III cards. Advising which card you were using was part of the beta testing routine.

 

Wilson

[k-hawinkler]

Hi Wilson,

 

Many thanks. My card is genuine and not fake - I am totally convinced of that.

I also believe that there is nothing wrong with my particular card.

I just ordered 4 older SDHC cards recommended by Leica in their online FAQs.

Leica has to work on their firmware to get the bugs out.

 

May be Jaap should start a section in his FAQs about M9 work arounds.

All cameras I have, including Nikon D3, D300, D200, D40, need some work arounds for some features.

 

The problem with the M9 seems to be that there are some more fundamental issues - like reliably writing images to the memory card under any circumstances. Leica could also spell out when not to touch the scroll wheel and arrow buttons.

 

I certainly consider saving DNG & JPG fine a hazard.

 

Best, K-H.

[k-hawinkler]

When the M9 first came out a number of people pointed out that the cheaper Ultra II Sandisk cards worked faster than the more expensive Extreme III. On that basis I was very happy to buy and use 3 x 16GB Ultra II cards. I tested these cards extensively on 1.160 and the foregoing beta softwares on all imaging modes and continuous etc, with no issues. I can therefore safely recommend them. I don't recall anyone reporting issues with any other cards but it may have been Murphy's law that none of us were using Extreme III cards. Advising which card you were using was part of the beta testing routine.

 

Wilson

 

 

Hi Wilson,

 

Thanks again. Actually there was at least one participant.

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/1742376-post45.html

 

As part of this thread I also learned that an Extreme is just a rebranded Extreme III.

 

 

I just ordered these by Leica recommended memory cards:

 

SanDisk Ultra 16 GB Class 4 SDHC Flash Memory Card SDSDRH-016G-A11

SANDISK SDSDHV-016G-A15 Card, SDHC, 16GB, Class 4, Ultra II, VideoVideo

and

Transcend 16 GB Class 6 SDHC Flash Memory Card with USB Card Reader TS16GSDHC6-P2E

 

Best, K-H.

[trond]

earful,

 

Excellent point. I agree.

 

Here is a quote from the M9 Instructions_en.pdf:

 

" The range of SD/SDHC cards available is too exten- sive for Leica Camera AG to fully test all available types for compatibility and quality. Therefore, we recommend for example the “Extreme III” or “Pro- fessional” cards from the leading brands “SanDisk” and “Lexar”. "

 

So, you got me curious what card I really have in the M9.

On my invoice, 12/28/09 from B&H, it says:

 

Item Description: SANDISK EXTREME III SDHC (30MB/S) 16GB

SKU#: SAE3SD16GBC

Item Price: 114.99

 

So, I have examined my card. The markings are:

 

SanDisk

Extreme

30 MB/s

SDHC

10 (inside a C sign)

16GB

SanDisk

 

Hmmm? When I search the current B&H website for SAE3SD16GBC I get the following:

 

Search Results We're sorry. No items were found matching your search request for"SAE3SD16GBC".

 

I always thought the E3 in SAE3SD16GBC indicated an Extreme III. I have a hard time believing it's not an Extreme III. But maybe not.

 

Does somebody know whether my card actually is an Extreme III or not?

 

On the B&H website, if I follow the accessories link on the Leica M9 page, it again leads to a SanDisk card marked Extreme and not Extremme III.

 

Would the following card fall within Leica's recommendation for the M9?

 

SanDisk 32GB Extreme Pro SDHC UHS-I Memory SDSDXP1-032G-A75 B&H

 

Can somebody please refer me to a URL with an SDHC card satisfying Leica's recommendation for sure?

 

Best, K-H.

 

This card is still in stock at B&H:

 

SanDisk 16GB Extreme SDHC Memory Card SDSDX3-016G-A31 B&H Photo

 

And at a very good price also!

 

Previously Extreme III is now Extreme 30MB/s.

 

I am using two of these cards in both M9 and M8.2, previously also in M8.

 

I am also using the SanDisk Ultra 32GB, 15MB/s card in all three cameras.

 

After 15000 pictures, I have not had a single problem with any of the cards, or M9/M8.2.

 

Uncompressed DNG mostly, and some BW jpegs.

 

SnaDisk changed the product naming from Extreme I, II, III, IV to Extreme pluss speed some time ago.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[k-hawinkler]

This card is still in stock at B&H:

 

SanDisk 16GB Extreme SDHC Memory Card SDSDX3-016G-A31 B&H Photo

 

And at a very good price also!

 

Previously Extreme III is now Extreme 30MB/s.

 

I am using two of these cards in both M9 and M8.2, previously also in M8.

 

I am also using the SanDisk Ultra 32GB, 15MB/s card in all three cameras.

 

After 15000 pictures, I have not had a single problem with any of the cards, or M9/M8.2.

 

Uncompressed DNG mostly, and some BW jpegs.

 

SnaDisk changed the product naming from Extreme I, II, III, IV to Extreme pluss speed some time ago.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

 

 

Hi Trond,

 

Thanks. Correct. But not under this symbol: SAE3SD16GBC

 

Also, I would appreciate if you tested extensively saving DNG (compressed) & JPG fine while using the scroll wheel and arrow buttons to zoom into an image while the just taken images are still being stored.

 

Best, K-H.

[trond]

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Dear K-H,

 

I will try some tests according to your instructions.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[otto.f]

K-H

I just did that (post #66), no problems

Sandisk 8Gb Extreme, 30Mb/s. SDHC (earlier logo)

[trond]

Same here!

 

I fired rapidly 5 + 5 shots, compressed DNG + JPG fine.

 

SanDisk Extreme 16GB 30MB/s.

 

Zooming and panning like mad, while the camera was saving.

 

At one time the camera display says "Attention, Data Transfer", then locks for a few seconds, but resuming soon after.

 

However, all pictures both DNGs and JPGs are all in normal condition.

 

My M9 is a very early sample, and I have never had any card problems.

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[k-hawinkler]

Hi Otto, Trond,

 

Thanks.

 

With my camera it happens intermittently.

In the example I gave it happened after 44 images - but is really unpredictable.

Other folks in this thread reported similar events.

Maybe all these cameras with problem cards need to be sent in for service?

 

Thanks again, K-H.

[Alnitak]

So, I have also had an interesting SD Card bug with the new firmware. I had no troubles with the beta firmware versions, and I only had trouble with one card, but here's the details:

 

1) Firmware on camera was 1.160, upgraded to 1.162.

2) Images were shot with both firmware versions on the card with no trouble, DNG only, uncompressed.

3) Downloaded all images to LR.

4) Returned card to camera and formatted in camera. Not the overwrite, just the regular format.

5) After the card finished formatting, the camera indicated that there was no SD card. It wouldn't recognize it any more.

6) Restarting the camera didn't make a difference.

7) I put the card in my card reader on my computer, and it was recognized as a Leica M9 card, formatted properly. I reformatted it on the computer.

8) Put it in the M9 and now it was recognized. Reformatted in the M9, just to be sure. It's been fine since.

 

This is a genuine Sandisk Ultra II 16GB card that has been perfect for me in the M9 for 20 months now.

 

I don't know what changed between version 1.160 (the last beta) and 1.162, but apparently it has had more of an effect on card compatibility than Leica realized. One lesson they need to take from this (and I say this as a professional in the software development world): Don't make significant changes after a beta release without having a second round of beta testing.

 

Jeff

[menos I M6]

So, I have also had an interesting SD Card bug with the new firmware. I had no troubles with the beta firmware versions, and I only had trouble with one card, but here's the details:

 

1) Firmware on camera was 1.160, upgraded to 1.162.

2) Images were shot with both firmware versions on the card with no trouble, DNG only, uncompressed.

3) Downloaded all images to LR.

4) Returned card to camera and formatted in camera. Not the overwrite, just the regular format.

5) After the card finished formatting, the camera indicated that there was no SD card. It wouldn't recognize it any more.

6) Restarting the camera didn't make a difference.

7) I put the card in my card reader on my computer, and it was recognized as a Leica M9 card, formatted properly. I reformatted it on the computer.

8) Put it in the M9 and now it was recognized. Reformatted in the M9, just to be sure. It's been fine since.

 

This is a genuine Sandisk Ultra II 16GB card that has been perfect for me in the M9 for 20 months now.

 

I don't know what changed between version 1.160 (the last beta) and 1.162, but apparently it has had more of an effect on card compatibility than Leica realized. One lesson they need to take from this (and I say this as a professional in the software development world): Don't make significant changes after a beta release without having a second round of beta testing.

 

Jeff

 

This exact issue has happened to me already a few times with:

 

Leica M8.2

Ricoh GRDIII

 

and a SanDisk Extreme III 4GB card.

 

Although, the card always worked otherwise without issues, I have retired it and don't use it anymore.

 

I suspect, this is a card related issue, not a camera issue (possibly a defective sector on the card gets triggered during the in camera formatting, making it impossible, to recognize the card thereafter in the camera).

[Alnitak]

This exact issue has happened to me already a few times with:

 

Leica M8.2

Ricoh GRDIII

 

and a SanDisk Extreme III 4GB card.

 

Although, the card always worked otherwise without issues, I have retired it and don't use it anymore.

 

I suspect, this is a card related issue, not a camera issue (possibly a defective sector on the card gets triggered during the in camera formatting, making it impossible, to recognize the card thereafter in the camera).

 

I'd accept that if this card hadn't been perfect for me for several years in many cameras, and if it didn't behave perfectly fine now. As it is, given the disproportionately high number of problems with cards in the M9, it seems fairly transparent that they still have some real hardware and software issues with their card interface implementation. It's the logical explanation, and supported by the data to date.

 

Jeff

[wlaidlaw]

I go along with what Jeff says. Having earlier said I had had no issues with the Ultra II 16GB cards, I did have an issue with cards when I upgraded the FW from 1.160 Beta to 1.162. This arrived when I was back in the UK for a few days to do the Tour Britannia Classic Car Rally and I was travelling light, so I did not have my camera bag with a whole lot of very small SD cards, on which I keep copies of the M9, M8 and Ricoh firmwares. I went to the drawer where I keep my spare SD cards in but it was "Mother Hubbard". My kids know that is where I keep them and they seem to regard SD cards as "use a few times then lose but never mind, there are always plenty in Dad's drawer". I then remembered there was a 2GB Extreme III in an old Palm Treo phone I had been meaning to get round to selling. When I put it in the M9 to format, the M9 would not see it at all showing "No SD card inserted". Luckily I had my Ricoh GX200 with me, which has a much more robust formatting algorithm. It formatted it with no problems and I could then reformat it in the M9 prior to copying 1.162 FW onto it.

 

Has anyone cross referenced this thread onto the beta testing forum, if not I will do it?

 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

I have now cross referenced this thread onto Beta testing forum, as I could not find any mention of this issue. Hopefully Leica is still keeping an eye on the Beta forum and I will send a quick email to Andreas as well to pass on to the appropriate person.

 

Wilson

[k-hawinkler]

Dirk, Jeff,

 

Many thanks for the feedback. Very interesting indeed.

BTW, my card, which seems to be a genuine SanDisk 30 MB/s Extreme III but labeled as Exreme,

has never given me any trouble formatting inside my M9, either by clicking Yes or Overwrite.

I just formatted the card right now, both ways, no problem.

 

Also, with my M9 and this very memory card, I have taken upwards of 5000 images,

never had a corrupted or partially corrupted image at all.

Today I shot successfully about 100 images by saving compressed DNG files.

I made sure not to touch the scroll wheel or arrow buttons for as long as the red LED was still blinking after a shot.

I even once filled the buffer in continuous mode and got the text message displayed on the LCD screen that data was still being transferred.

I duly waited until the data was completely saved before chimping. No problem.

 

The problem I have observed with the previous and current firmware version, but only intermittently,

starts when I begin chimping while image(s) are still being saved to the memory card.

 

With the previous firmware version and saving compressed DNG, occasionally under this scenario,

when zoomed in, I couldn't scroll left or right in an image as the display instead cycled through adjacent images.

But my M9 never locked up completely.

However, I could always scroll up and down.

 

With the current firmware version and saving DNG & JPG fine, under this scenario,

I had the M9 first lock up completely so that I had to switch it off to unlock it.

Then several images later, not chimping now, I noticed that the image counter didn't increase anymore.

The rest of the story is described in my originating post of this thread.

 

Now, let's examine the question what could account for these observations.

 

1.) Bad memory card - I don't think so.

2.) Intermittent hardware failure - maybe.

3.) Firmware bugs - IMHO more likely.

 

To me it looks like that through the actions of the photographer - by pushing buttons or scrolling -

while images are still being saved, the M9 can be put into an undefined state so that it behaves erratically.

I would surmise that there are some bugs in the realtime aspects of the firmware.

 

As a paying customer, I would simply say, my M9 is flaky and not robust enough to depend upon.

An approach of dealing with this, until Leica fixes the issues, is to develop work arounds.

Basically restrict what actions can be safely performed and when by the photographer.

 

Anyway. These are my observations and thoughts and I reserve the right to be wrong about all this.

 

I am also asking forum members for help to address these problems. Thanks.

 

Best, K-H.

[k-hawinkler]

I have now cross referenced this thread onto Beta testing forum, as I could not find any mention of this issue. Hopefully Leica is still keeping an eye on the Beta forum and I will send a quick email to Andreas as well to pass on to the appropriate person.

 

Wilson

 

 

Hi Wilson,

 

Many thanks.

Is there a way for me to read the Beta testing forum?

 

Best, K-H.

[wlaidlaw]

Hi Wilson,

 

Many thanks.

Is there a way for me to read the Beta testing forum?

 

Best, K-H.

 

K-H,

 

I am afraid it is restricted to beta testers only as part of the NDA - sorry.

 

Wilson

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[k-hawinkler]

The Transcend 16 GB Class 6 SDHC Flash Memory Card with USB Card Reader TS16GSDHC6-P2E behaves as described in here

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/174378-intermittent-m9-lcd-navigation-malfunction.html although I have the latest firmware on my M9.

 

Of course, it doesn't happen all the time but intermittently. Too bad.

 

Best, K-H.

[Rick]

Ok, can someone conclude this for me. There have been a very few people that have reported issues. I can count 5 or so, on a large forum. One member is very vocal that this is a Leica bug that needs to be addressed. I have a drawer full of cards and have been trying to do everything today to recreate this problem, I can't. I know that I am just a sample of one, but I never seem to be able to recreate a lot of these reported problems. I also know that I don't get out an shoot as much as a lot of you guys (less than 10,000 in 15 months). So, what is the take home on the card issue?