M9 in the Field.

[zlatkob]

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Charles' post is extremely valuable ... if anyone is willing to listen. Real world feedback is how we ALL get better cameras in the future. If we treat this as a serious discussion, we can help him with some details that might make his work with the camera a little easier. And we can agree that some aspects of the camera really should be better, especially for the demanding user.

 

Sadly, this isn't the first time that an outstanding photographer gets bashed for daring to post anything less than glowing praise of the expensive hand-built Ferrari. Michael Kamber got bashed too (for the M8). There was a photographer from the UK (I don't recall his name) who was reflexively branded a troll and a know-nothing before people realized that he was a far better photographer than nearly everyone on this forum.

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[chris_tribble]

I'm writing from Lanzhou in NW China - not a war zone, but it's dry, dusty, hot and transport is bumpy when you get to village level. I'm here with my education + documentary photo hats on and only brought the M9s.

 

OK - I'm not in the line of fire, but I am having to work quickly and discreetly. For me a pair of M9s + 28/35/50/90 are doing the job perfectly and without a glitch. In the past I've used various Canon's for doing the same kind of work and the experience isn't anything like as good. People freeze when the big camera comes out of the bag, and you often just don't get the shot. Battery life averages arounf 450/500 shots. I always shoot RAW and p.p. on LR3.

 

This in no way invalidates Charles' experiences - what he says about the limitations of the M9 has substance. But it is my experience - and also valid. For the work I do the M9 is the best tool. It's not as fast as a pro DSLR and framing isn't as immediate. But I love the IQ and I love the portability on long days. WB I find to be a non-issue.

 

Sorry it worked out so badly for the o.p. But his experience isn't universal.

[AlanJW]

Admittedly not using mine in a war zone, and not a PJ but have not had the failures described.

 

Battery life: not great but better if you set the camera to go to sleep.

 

Cards: No card issues for me and I have tried Sandisk, Transcend, and Toshiba, all 16G class 10.

 

PP : I'm one of those ACR Luddites and for me there is less post processing needed out of M9 than out of 5Dii. I am lazy and shoot raw, starting with AWB and work from there.

 

Dynamic range: (at low ISO) is the best of any digital I have used, including Canon and Nikon.

 

Framing: It's a rangefinder. It is not precise. But no worse than my M6.

 

Rear LCD: the rear screen stinks and should be improved.

 

High ISO: not very good compared to other high end cameras.

 

The M9 tool has strengths and weaknesses too. Like any tool it needs for the user to decide whether it is the right tool or wrong tool for a particular task. For a tool this complex (and expensive) that judgment is better informed by prior experience.

[PayPerView]

Charles' post is extremely valuable ... if anyone is willing to listen. Real world feedback is how we ALL get better cameras in the future. If we treat this as a serious discussion, we can help him with some details that might make his work with the camera a little easier. And we can agree that some aspects of the camera really should be better, especially for the demanding user.

 

Sadly, this isn't the first time that an outstanding photographer gets bashed for daring to post anything less than glowing praise of the expensive hand-built Ferrari. Michael Kamber got bashed too (for the M8). There was a photographer from the UK (I don't recall his name) who was reflexively branded a troll and a know-nothing before people realized that he was a far better photographer than nearly everyone on this forum.

 

Is it really that 'valuable'? I dont' really think so..He had a bad experience with his M8.2 and posted about it...Then goes out and buys and M9 to use for pretty much the first time on an assignment? Complaining about the viewfinder? and he was an M6 shooter?

 

He didn't know the screen quality of the LCD before he bought it?

 

Battery life? Well it's 400-600 Raw images from what I've experienced as well as others...What's the news here?

 

I would think a pro would not buy a new camera and count on it while on assignment..especially under the circumstances he describes.

[zlatkob]

Is it really that 'valuable'?

 

Yes, it is that valuable. Because it may the only hope for getting those details improved in the next model. If Leica only hears from people who are satisfied with every detail, they will not perceive any market demand for improvement. Why build a better LCD or battery or exterior finish or startup time if everyone is seemingly satisfied with everything as is?

 

To defend the camera, you're going so far as to blame him for "counting on" the camera, even though you don't know what backups he had. That's kind of sad. He should be able to count on it, yes, even in those conditions (with backups, of course); that's the problem.

 

Others are blaming him for buying it only 2 weeks before his trip. If he had bought it 4 weeks before his trip, they would probably argue for a 6-week minimum. Why bash the messenger? Why not accept that some details should be better? People seem offended at the idea that the camera might be built to meet the needs of a more demanding user. What's next ... blame him for having only 4 batteries?

[otto.f]

Why not accept that some details should be better?

 

I accept that but the way Charles formulates his critique points is just a tiny little bit overstated here and there and he seems not to have read the specs before he bought it (and now people are prepared to spell it out for him in several posts).

 

I'd much rather have a M9 without a rear-screen btw, so that I'm pushed to rely on my skills that I built up when working with my M4 and M6, all that neurotic checking checking checking costs too much time and distracts me from keeping contact with my environment.

[zlatkob]

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You brought a brand-new camera to a professional assignment. That's what no seasoned photojournalist would ever do ... so don't be surprised when you get suspected being a troll rather than a pro.

I would think a pro would not buy a new camera and count on it while on assignment..especially under the circumstances he describes.

Y'all who know better what a pro would do must have more World Press Photo awards than Charles (and better photojournalism experience)!

I accept that but the way Charles formulates his critique points is just a tiny little bit overstated here and there and he seems not to have read the specs before he bought it (and now people are prepared to spell it out for him in several posts).

Not everything is in the specs. As for what is in the specs, it's reasonable to want better specs.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Charles,

 

Welcome back.

 

I'm glad you're OK. Contrary to what you might be thinking right now I am sure everyone else here is also glad you're back & you're OK.

 

Sometimes the World is a curious place.

 

When I read this Thread: Your return & all that is being discussed, it reminds me somewhat of my return from Vietnam. Not the specific content. I was not a photographer altho I did help one combat photographer to better understand his silver chrome M4. I don't remember what lens or separate meter. The lens was small. Probably a 35 or an Elcan 50.

 

What I remember is: Coming back life didn't always give everyone the time or space they might have needed to decompress & reintegrate into a very different World than the 1 they had just left not that many hours before.

 

One day I got up & went to work just like every other day. Some one said: " Your time's up." (I knew it). They gave me some orders & said: "Go home."

 

I went back to my tent, packed my duffle bag & a Samsonite suit case I bought so I could go back looking like a person & went to look for a gunship. I caught a ride part way to Saigon & then 2 more the rest of the way. The 3d ride left me @ the Airport.

 

I found a cargo plane & sent my duffle. Then I went to look for a place to sleep. It was late. The next morning I got up, walked around & found a plane going to San Francisco, showed them my orders, took my suitcase & got on.

 

Civilian airliner, real stewardesses, actual food. Just like the plane coming over except the one coming over also had had M16's because it was the beginning of the Tet Offensive & the same airport was then under constant attack.

 

When the plane landed @ SFO I walked off the plane into the airport. Different World.

I sat for an hour & just watched people walking by. Then I went home.

 

So Charles, every once & a while step back a bit. It's a different World here. Sometimes imperfect. Not everyone knows or cares. Sometimes there's a bump or 2 in the road.

 

I can still pick a Huey out of the sky w/o looking. I'm sure you know somthing equally useful from the current War or 2.

 

Look, you made it back. Don't let the World do to you what the War couldn't.

 

Talk to me.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[denoir]

Leica got its reputation as the penultimate photo journalism camera partly because its mechanical reliability. It seems like the mechanical parts are still good but they have not managed to keep that kind of quality in the electronic parts of the camera.

 

I can understand why - they're new to digital and Leica is a small company with limited resources. It is however something they should work on in future versions. What's the point of mechanical perfection if the camera fails on something as simple as writing to an SD card.

 

Not all of us have high requirements in that department, but that's not a good argument. A Leica camera should preferably have Leica quality in all its components and that is clearly not the case. So all real world test results should be valuable to Leica so that they know which things they need to fix first from a reliability point of view.

[mwilliamsphotography]

What is it about the polarizing B&W statements on this forum?

 

Just because a few over-state their reactions to a valid critique by an accomplished photographer doesn't mean everyone did. The OP asked for suggestions from users and many replied ... but that isn't the same as some wholesale defense of the M9.

 

When other photographers offer their equally valid positive experiences, even in demanding circumstances, they are dismissed as luddites who think the camera is perfect ... usually to further support some negative juggernaut of an argument that sounds just as ignorant as the luddite's arguments. It sounds just a pathological either way ... which accounts for not recognizing anything said other than what supports some wholesale B or W argument for or against. Then there's the tired old chestnut of stating that the OP is a better photographer than everyone on this forum. Everyone? Really? Personal opinion applied as empirical insults really do not work to forward any discussion.

 

When I hear that the M9 can't reliably write to a SD card as proof that the electronics are inferior, I scratch my head in wonder since both of M9s have never had this issue. Recently, a GetDpi owner got a Sony A850 and had an issue writing to a card ... and he isn't the first Sony owner I've heard with this issue. So the electronics giant Sony also must be inferior at electronic cameras. In the GetDpi case, it was indeed a counterfeit card, which was thoughtfully offered up as a possibility in this case by a number of LUF members.

 

Can the M digital be improved? Sure, and that is being done as we speak. Were some of the M9 aspects mis-steps? Sure. Those are also being addressed as we speak. Same for every other digital camera being made ... which implies that none of them are perfect either.

 

Get real people ... with the current state of technology everything is a trade-off. Leica managed to cram a FF 18 meg sensor into the smallest interchangeable lens body available. Pretty remarkable given the flange to sensor distance not faced by any other FF camera (as of now). The IQ expected from a M camera was maintained using a CCD and no AA, while being continuously improved via firmware ... accomplished with some sacrifice of the higher ISO performance compared to other cameras that sacrifice IQ to achieve high ISO.

 

New technology will solve some of this in future ... but Leica can only employ the technology that's available, and works in such a small FF camera ... one that maintains support for the M lenses many of us have a fortune invested in.

 

-Marc

[delander †]

I'm recently retired from a career in publishing which involved some photography. In those pre-Leica days (for me) I used Canon gear which I still have.

Now for my personal projects which involve photographing craftsmen in their workplaces I take along my Canon 1ds3 and a couple of zoom lenses as well as my Leica M9 with 3 or 4 lenses. At the beginning I take shots with the Canon, to safely get something in the bank so to speak. Then I settle down with my Leica and at relaxed and more thoughtful pace take a quite a few more.

Ninety percent of the time it is the M9 shots that I use. And even my subjects choose the M9 shots over those from the Canon.

 

I 'know' that the Canon system will get 'a shot' in almost any situation. I'm not so confident about my M9 although I've not had any problems with it. If I had to go to Afghanistan (god forbid) I would not just rely on the M9, although you should be able to.

 

Jeff

[dwbell]

Charles - just wanted to thank you for posting and tell you that I love your work.

Please do take the advice of the previous poster and talk directly to Leica management - they will value your constructive criticism.

 

Keep safe.

[SJP]

I must admit that "sudden death" is one of the few irritating aspects of my M8, which I believe is purely due to how it reacts to battery charge levels.

 

I think the M9 is basically the same in that respect (as the M9 electronics is pretty much the same). I know that Li-ion batteries have a steep end of life curve but my M8 does not seem to give any useful early warning. Unlike all other Li-ion powered devices I have (like mobile phones, videocams) that are able to show a nice continuous "charge level bar" or "57 minutes remaining" allowing me to avoid being surprised.

 

Especially using the "c" mode is a sure fired method to make the camera die on me when I least expect it. This is a good reason not to use "c" mode at all.

[zlatkob]

What is it about the polarizing B&W statements on this forum?

 

Just because a few over-state their reactions to a valid critique by an accomplished photographer doesn't mean everyone did. The OP asked for suggestions from users and many replied ... but that isn't the same as some wholesale defense of the M9.

 

First, a few don't simply over-state their reactions. Some reactions don't make sense -

- the camera is an expensive hand-built Ferrari

- making fun of the OP's name because he is suspected of being a troll

- you did what a seasoned photojournalist would never do

- you shouldn't use auto white balance / AWB is not in line with M-philosophy

- is this Digilloyd posting?

- do you really shoot jpeg?

- etc.

 

When other photographers offer their equally valid positive experiences, even in demanding circumstances, they are dismissed as luddites who think the camera is perfect ... usually to further support some negative juggernaut of an argument that sounds just as ignorant as the luddite's arguments. It sounds just a pathological either way ... which accounts for not recognizing anything said other than what supports some wholesale B or W argument for or against.

 

Second, no one was "dismissed as a luddite who thinks the camera is perfect" for offering positive experiences. That is your polarizing statement, and it is untrue. Positive experiences are valid and not dismissed. My own experience is largely positive, though the startup slowness has caught me a few times.

 

Then there's the tired old chestnut of stating that the OP is a better photographer than everyone on this forum. Everyone? Really? Personal opinion applied as empirical insults really do not work to forward any discussion.

 

Third, I wrote "nearly everyone", not "everyone". That's not intended as an insult and you don't have to take it as one. And I did say that was someone in another thread.

 

But there is something of a repeating pattern here: a highly accomplished pro photographer with many years experience with Leica writes about a bad experience with the digital M. He gets criticized by *some* people who have never done photography for a living, are in an entirely different line of work, have no web site or work online, have no apparent photography credentials, and have no comparable performance needs for the camera. Likely end result: highly accomplished pro photographer with many years experience with Leica never returns to the forum. Thus, the forum loses out. His critics win.

[John Ricard]

But there is something of a repeating pattern here: a highly accomplished pro photographer with many years experience with Leica writes about a bad experience with the digital M. He gets criticized by *some* people who have never done photography for a living, are in an entirely different line of work, have no web site or work online, have no apparent photography credentials, and have no comparable performance needs for the camera. Likely end result: highly accomplished pro photographer with many years experience with Leica never returns to the forum. Thus, the forum loses out. His critics win.

 

Agreed. That happens here and on other forums all too often. And it sucks.

[otto.f]

It's always the same pattern indeed. That's why I warned Charles at the start of this thread, go back to your dealer.

 

A forum should not be a market

[hoferat]

charles: nowaday leicas are made for fondlers, not users, it seems. its one thing to take a m9 out for a stroll in stuttgart or london - when its not raining of course - or try to take actually pictures in a sometimes hostile environment. forget the m9 for everything exept aunt annies birthday, and use canon or nikon pro-equipment. they have proven to deliver at any circumstances. sorry leica-guys, thats the way it is. the last useable m was the m6. sad but true

[Peter H]

.......the last useable m was the m6. sad but true

 

Wouldn't it be interesting if it really were possible to transform an opinion into a fact simply by stating that its true?

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[denoir]

charles: nowaday leicas are made for fondlers, not users, it seems. its one thing to take a m9 out for a stroll in stuttgart or london - when its not raining of course - or try to take actually pictures in a sometimes hostile environment. forget the m9 for everything exept aunt annies birthday, and use canon or nikon pro-equipment. they have proven to deliver at any circumstances. sorry leica-guys, thats the way it is. the last useable m was the m6. sad but true

 

 

 

Rain and snow are no problem for the M9. I've used in pretty nasty weather without any problems. For that particular part I think it is no worse than the M6 - with the exception that the M9 has potentially sensitive electronics inside.

 

If you look at Charles' post you'll see he had no complaints about the camera in that respect - and the country side of Afghanistan should have been a pretty good test.

 

No, his complaints were on the electronics side of the camera - i.e problems with SD cards, slow wake up time, poor battery life etc

 

By the way, your post is an excellent example of the completely unnecessary hyperbole that only serves to antagonize M9 owners. As blind Leica loyalty is distasteful, so is this.

 

I really wonder what it is that brings out this extreme in people when it comes to Leica. Yes like with anything we have a continuous distribution of people that range from hating everything about the camera to loving everything. The extreme positions seem to be very over represented for some reason. What is it that makes Leica specifically the target of such unconditional love & hate?

[thighslapper]

have to agree with Charles folks....

 

for a meandering jaunt with time to contemplate and compose, the M9 is a perfect companion.......

 

for crap conditions with the need to snatch numerous shots under quickly changing circumstances, it aint......

 

having said that Charles didn't mention anything about the actual photos he took and whether he was pleased with them..... maybe the pain was actually worthwhile ...