ommanney Posted June 17, 2011 Share #1 Posted June 17, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dear All, I havent written on this forum for awhile (actually not much of a forum writer full stop) but I thought it about time to plug back in. I would like to precede this post by stating that this is not another 'anti' Leica rant but an attempt to find out what I am doing wrong or maybe just a wake up call to the realities of the Leica M9. I guess I want your feedback. The last time I posted on this useful forum was back in January 2009 when I was having all kinds of issues with my M8.2 - soon after my last posting it was sold at a nasty loss after completely freezing on me on Obama's inauguration Day in DC (thank god for my Canon's - I went on to win a World Press award for the picture of Obama with his eyes closed seconds before going out to be confirmed and yes the Leica would not turn on at that VERY moment so I switched to my noisier but trusted Canons). Well two or so years later I have just returned from Afghanistan where I was on assignment for Stern magazine in Germany - story will come out at end of July about the Taliban attacking schools in the north and the terrible effects the war is having on the children of the region - very hard and tricky story to shoot believe me. Right to the point; Two weeks before leaving for Kabul (six weeks ago) after a lot of going back and forward on the matter i decided to drop a huge amount of money again and buy myself a Leica M9. From reading the many reviews online it certainly appeared that many of the bugs that plagued the M8 had been ironed out and of course the 'full frame' aspect changed everything for me having spent the first 15 years of my career shooting M6's with my many wonderful lenses it would not be unchartered ground. Well I got back last weekend and I simply could not sit quietly having spent so much time out there so disappointed with the M9. It was a complete disaster. Lets start by saying this is no longer a camera one can take on foreign assignments that take you out into the field - this was never the case of course with the many wonderful Leica film camera's of days gone past. The batteries - absolutely terrible - I took four batteries that were horribly expensive with me thinking I would be fine - within a week I had turned off the review altogether and only turned the camera on when about to take a picture. They run out even in standby mode - I have nothing to compare this with except the batteries in my large SLR's last for days if not whole shoots and don't lose their charge if the camera's not on? The cards - I took one 16gb Sandisk Extreme Pro with me and two Sandisk 16gb Ultra 2's and guess what neither of the Ultra's would work (images simply vanished) after about frame 6 (and yes of course I tested and formatted them fully before leaving but not over a couple of frames). I have since found out that many cards don't work with the M9. The 'turn on' delay' is worse that my 100 dollar Nikon as is the review, the release is not much better to be honest even in soft mode, the white balance is that of a camera from 2005 but to be honest I remember my old 5d's being far superior from that time. I have experimented a great deal and found the only way around it is to continually take manuel white balance readings otherwise you can take 15 pictures of the exact same scene in any of the auto settings and all 15 pictures are different - its amazing how you just cannot trust this camera. Its hit and miss and of course one finds oneself using it less and less as I did in Afghanistan - very sad fact for me. The inaccurate viewfinder (that boggles me) that you just have to point in the direction of your subject and crop later as there is NO way to compose accurately - again whats happened here?. The focus issues I hear people talk about I did not have a problem with but as a stickler for composition I found the viewfinder quite frustrating. The rear screen is a joke but I see many people go into this so I wont go there. And to top it off the end product that comes out of the camera needs so much work in post production how on earth can this be a useful too in the real world of the photojournalist? You simply cannot sit at a computer for hours wasting valuable battery time and in the case of this last assignment endangering everyone because there is a need to keep moving. Clearly I am pissed with myself for spending the 7000 (the camera is now brassed and well used looking so has no sell value if I thought I could quickly get rid of it) - so I am stuck with it (unless anyone of you lot want it!!) and need you guys to somehow give me some pointers! Its a terrible camera!? Yes it looks fantastic, yes it feels fantastic in the hand and is a beautifully made instrument but man is it a pain in the ass to work with. And before everyone gets on my case about it being a tool to slow down with, to think about the picture more and the differences between rangefinder photography and the like may I remind you that I have been at this game for many years, have used/tested and bought virtually every make and type of camera (Newsweek used to have a very healthy photo gear budget) so I have a bit of experience. What to do? I am so annoyed. Thoughts and advice? Best wishes to you all, Charles Ommanney Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Hi ommanney, Take a look here M9 in the Field.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
M. Valdemar Posted June 17, 2011 Share #2 Posted June 17, 2011 Would you take an exotic, expensive hand-built Ferrari (that you just bought) out into the wilderness to drive around in the mud and rain, or would you take a Willys Jeep or a Toyota Land Cruiser? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ommanney Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted June 17, 2011 Huh? I am not sure I am understanding your point? A M9 is a professional camera made for exactly the type of thing I do for a living? Its not an exotic car? Best, Charles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpattison Posted June 17, 2011 Share #4 Posted June 17, 2011 I would have given it more than two weeks to find out if an (the particular) M9 was going to be OK. How were you charging the batteries? You need to let them discharge fully for the first three or four times, and you had four of them. Same issue with the SD cards, how did you test them beforehand? My SanDisk 8GB, and 4GB, Extreme III have never failed. Have you checked that Leica recommend Ultra 2s? John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted June 17, 2011 Share #5 Posted June 17, 2011 not much to say except that the m9 is not a camera for the environment you need a camera to work in. some of the issues you faced i haven't (battery life, white balance) then again i am not shooting under deadline in a combat zone, unless you consider shooting tourists in and around rockefeller center a combat zone. your very real issue are, in some way, similar to taking an m6 into the field in this day and age and comparing its responsiveness and workflow to a top tier dslr, nikon or canon -- brand isn't the point. you know, running out of film at just the wrong time, developing, scanning. since you are a professional it would be wise for leica to engage you for comments and thoughts as they go forward in designing an m10. or perhaps leica recognizes that its camera is no longer the choice for the professional in your situation. shame really, since they were once the innovators and have increasingly become captive to their ur innovation. if they recognized the essence of their first camera they would be the lead dog is mirrorless digital technology. thanks for your comments. steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted June 17, 2011 Share #6 Posted June 17, 2011 This is a public service edit in the interests of readability: Dear All, I havent written on this forum for awhile (actually not much of a forum writer full stop) but I thought it about time to plug back in. I would like to precede this post by stating that this is not another 'anti' Leica rant but an attempt to find out what I am doing wrong or maybe just a wake up call to the realities of the Leica M9. I guess I want your feedback. The last time I posted on this useful forum was back in January 2009 when I was having all kinds of issues with my M8.2 - soon after my last posting it was sold at a nasty loss after completely freezing on me on Obama's inauguration Day in DC (thank god for my Canon's - I went on to win a World Press award for the picture of Obama with his eyes closed seconds before going out to be confirmed and yes the Leica would not turn on at that VERY moment so I switched to my noisier but trusted Canons). Well two or so years later I have just returned from Afghanistan where I was on assignment for Stern magazine in Germany - story will come out at end of July about the Taliban attacking schools in the north and the terrible effects the war is having on the children of the region - very hard and tricky story to shoot believe me. Right to the point; Two weeks before leaving for Kabul (six weeks ago) after a lot of going back and forward on the matter i decided to drop a huge amount of money again and buy myself a Leica M9. From reading the many reviews online it certainly appeared that many of the bugs that plagued the M8 had been ironed out and of course the 'full frame' aspect changed everything for me having spent the first 15 years of my career shooting M6's with my many wonderful lenses it would not be unchartered ground. Well I got back last weekend and I simply could not sit quietly having spent so much time out there so disappointed with the M9. It was a complete disaster. Lets start by saying this is no longer a camera one can take on foreign assignments that take you out into the field - this was never the case of course with the many wonderful Leica film camera's of days gone past. The batteries - absolutely terrible - I took four batteries that were horribly expensive with me thinking I would be fine - within a week I had turned off the review altogether and only turned the camera on when about to take a picture. They run out even in standby mode - I have nothing to compare this with except the batteries in my large SLR's last for days if not whole shoots and don't lose their charge if the camera's not on? The cards - I took one 16gb Sandisk Extreme Pro with me and two Sandisk 16gb Ultra 2's and guess what neither of the Ultra's would work (images simply vanished) after about frame 6 (and yes of course I tested and formatted them fully before leaving but not over a couple of frames). I have since found out that many cards don't work with the M9. The 'turn on' delay' is worse that my 100 dollar Nikon as is the review, the release is not much better to be honest even in soft mode, the white balance is that of a camera from 2005 but to be honest I remember my old 5d's being far superior from that time. I have experimented a great deal and found the only way around it is to continually take manuel white balance readings otherwise you can take 15 pictures of the exact same scene in any of the auto settings and all 15 pictures are different - its amazing how you just cannot trust this camera. Its hit and miss and of course one finds oneself using it less and less as I did in Afghanistan - very sad fact for me. The inaccurate viewfinder (that boggles me) that you just have to point in the direction of your subject and crop later as there is NO way to compose accurately - again whats happened here?. The focus issues I hear people talk about I did not have a problem with but as a stickler for composition I found the viewfinder quite frustrating. The rear screen is a joke but I see many people go into this so I wont go there. And to top it off the end product that comes out of the camera needs so much work in post production how on earth can this be a useful too in the real world of the photojournalist? You simply cannot sit at a computer for hours wasting valuable battery time and in the case of this last assignment endangering everyone because there is a need to keep moving. Clearly I am pissed with myself for spending the 7000 (the camera is now brassed and well used looking so has no sell value if I thought I could quickly get rid of it) - so I am stuck with it (unless anyone of you lot want it!!) and need you guys to somehow give me some pointers! Its a terrible camera!? Yes it looks fantastic, yes it feels fantastic in the hand and is a beautifully made instrument but man is it a pain in the ass to work with. And before everyone gets on my case about it being a tool to slow down with, to think about the picture more and the differences between rangefinder photography and the like may I remind you that I have been at this game for many years, have used/tested and bought virtually every make and type of camera (Newsweek used to have a very healthy photo gear budget) so I have a bit of experience. What to do? I am so annoyed. Thoughts and advice? Best wishes to you all, Charles Ommanney Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted June 17, 2011 Share #7 Posted June 17, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I need to be like most others here and begin reading at the end of the thread rather than at the beginning. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted June 17, 2011 Share #8 Posted June 17, 2011 The inaccurate viewfinder (that boggles me) that you just have to point in the direction of your subject and crop later as there is NO way to compose accurately - again whats happened here?. The focus issues I hear people talk about I did not have a problem with but as a stickler for composition I found the viewfinder quite frustrating. Hi Charles Welcome back to the forum. The M9 finder should be similar to the M6 finder you used to use? Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted June 17, 2011 Share #9 Posted June 17, 2011 I'd give a camera - any camera - more than a two-week trial before relying on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted June 17, 2011 Share #10 Posted June 17, 2011 In German, 'ommanney' sounds like a colloquial 'gee!' or 'rats!' or 'doh!' in English. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Valdemar Posted June 17, 2011 Share #11 Posted June 17, 2011 Huh? I am not sure I am understanding your point? A M9 is a professional camera made for exactly the type of thing I do for a living? Its not an exotic car?Best, Charles The M9 is not a camera made for rugged field use. It is a somewhat buggy hand-made device that needs a lot of coaxing but can produce outstanding images with an excellent series of lenses. If you still think of the current M-series of camera as something that is professionally rugged and is combat-ready for the jungle, you're still processing Vietnam-era marketing hype. It's not a hockey puck like the M4 and the Nikon F used to be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted June 17, 2011 Share #12 Posted June 17, 2011 I'd give a camera - any camera - more than a two-week trial before relying on it. may hap : but there is nothing teaches as well as grabbing a hot poker by the wrong end. Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ommanney Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share #13 Posted June 17, 2011 Oh dear - Thanks to Bill for making my post a little more 'readable'.... Not sure how serious any of your replies really are but I will keep them in mind (especially useful was the chap who enlightened me about what my name sounds like in Germany - very helpful). Thought this was a professional forum - my mistake. best, Charles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 17, 2011 Share #14 Posted June 17, 2011 All valid frustrations and concerns except for the viewfinder beef as it is the same as other Leicas. The only difference from film is the instant feedback - with film when you got it processed days/months later you forgot all about how it was originally composed and just accepted it. Otherwise sorry to hear. But like others said knowing your past frustrations with the M8 (my M8's which I did like were nothing but constant trouble) then I would have thoroughly tested it before leaving. As it is I have had no problems with my M9 but don't totally trust it to be alone on an important job esp with the whole sensor cracking issue, so I almost always have a dslr along. I'm looking to get a back up - either a well priced used or maybe the new M9-P. Send yours back to Leica for a go-through and maybe we can work a deal? I don't mind cosmetics.... Best, Charles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 17, 2011 Share #15 Posted June 17, 2011 Oh, also Charles (good name:)) maybe you can explain some of your frustrations with post as my experience is almost always the opposite - I spend much more time with my Nikon D3 files then I do with my M9. But I shoot only RAW and process in Lightroom, usually adding a "medium contrast curve" preset when importing. So not sure about jpegs (where one does have to worry about auto white balance etc). The one (and I mean #1) improvement Leica should make on the next model is instant startup time in standby mode. It would probably mean switching to an electronic release. But I've lost just too many shots because of the way standby works now. But it's the only way to not drain batteries. As it is the new firmware makes turning on from cold now instantaneous. Also better preview rendering (not necessarily faster just better imo). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.f Posted June 17, 2011 Share #16 Posted June 17, 2011 It's not a hockey puck like the M4 and the Nikon F used to be. Not to mention the R6 Your question Charles is what to do and you did not mean to open up an anti Leica rant. Well I would never use this forum for this kind of complaints because we can't help you. I would go to your dealer because he and Leica are the right addresses. You've got a two-years warranty and if you invest in a good relation with your dealer, and he takes you serious as a customer, these two years I bet will be longer if it's about real problems you may not expect from a Leica. The story about your M9 and its unreliability seems far from normal to me. Weak electric circuit blabla, the cause is none of photographer's business and completely uninteresting for forum-members here. Let the salesmen and technicians fight out how to indemnify you. Most members who start such a thread like you just did, end up with no solutions and lack of recognition and thus even more frustration, you won't heal your unhappiness with your M9 with it, on the contrary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted June 17, 2011 Share #17 Posted June 17, 2011 Charles, There are those of us who use the M9 a lot for professional purposes. I'll write you a more detailed PM, but I do think you probably needed a couple more weeks with the camera to use it on a job. Anyway, I agree with all your points but there are workarounds for most if not all of them... I'll send you a detailed PM on them. The one big exception is battery life. I had an offer to do a 3-week job in Tanzania and Zanzibar and the whole "I need an infrastructure for M9 power" was the biggest worry I had (well, that and no insurance company I could find would insure my stuff--but that's a different story). The batteries are good for 400-600 RAW shots and that's it. So if you've got a heavy day of shooting it's not going to cut it; the M9 is a CCD-based camera just like a Phase back so it does eat power. I never think of battery life on my Nikon D3 (or on the Canon 1ds bodies either). They're good for thousands of shots--I'd say maybe 3-5k per battery depending on the conditions? So yeah, by comparison, the M9 battery is totally ancient. As for WB, etc...shooting RAW is the only way. I know that's post, but other than WB (which you can bulk assign really easily) I find I do wayyy less post work to the M shots than to Canon or Nikon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted June 17, 2011 Share #18 Posted June 17, 2011 Ok here goes. I am ex pro and have never used the M9 for any pro work but I would have thought that you main issues here would be battery life and the amount of PP needed. I find that 2 batteries will last me for a day of shooting with the camera on for 6-8 hours on 10 minute standby (have covered some family weddings like this). I also find that once beyond the 10 minutes the camera goes in standby and doesn't drain the battery any further. Of course my D700 can be left in active standby for a month with no particular drain on the battery. I only shoot RAW so can't really say much about the jpeg output from the M9 except for the fact that I find a well exposed DNG out of the leica needs very little pp. Would I rely on it as a main camera in a situation such as yours no. Would I take it along yes as it (really the lenses) can create images no other camera can Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Valdemar Posted June 17, 2011 Share #19 Posted June 17, 2011 I'd be afraid of the problems with SD cards. I've had cards inexplicably losing images, the camera corrupting files, with certain cards the card suddenly becoming unusable. This happens with my M9 on a scale unprecedented with any other digital camera I have ever tried. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
denoir Posted June 17, 2011 Share #20 Posted June 17, 2011 Charles O., Batteries - not brilliant, but was it really that much of a problem? I usually get about 400-500 shots from one battery unless the temperature is very low. It's possible that if the camera was in standby mode in a bag that the shutter was regularly inadvertently pressed half way, waking the camera and wasting batteries. SD cards - it's true that it isn't good that the M9 has problems with various types and brands. However once you find one that works that should no longer be an issue. I can however understand your frustration. Turn on delay - sure, it could definitely be improved. White balance - I shoot RAW so it's a non-issue. I suppose if you have to limit yourself to jpegs that it coudl be problematic. Viewfinder - the frame lines and (in)accuracy of the frame lines are identical to what you get with the M6. My guess is that you just never saw how inaccurate they were when using the M6 as you had to wait for the film to be developed. LCD screen - sure, it's not good. What to do? I would suggest you try to get to know it a bit better and then make a decision. If you choose to sell it I think you will be surprised by how much you can get for a well worn M9. A question - did you have any problems with dust or any other environmental factors? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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