luxikon Posted May 22, 2011 Share #1 Posted May 22, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Does anybody use his M9 for astrophotography? How can I connect the visoflex to a T2 adapter? Is there a T2 ring with Leica bayonet or M39 screwmount? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 Hi luxikon, Take a look here Astrophotography. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
giordano Posted May 22, 2011 Share #2 Posted May 22, 2011 The thickness of the Visoflex means that (regardless of adapter) T-mount lenses cannot focus to infinity. I don't know whether this would be a problem for your telescope. If not, you can use any Leica M-to-SLR adapter (e.g. Leica R or Nikon F) and the corresponding T2 adapter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 22, 2011 Share #3 Posted May 22, 2011 Problem: you can only expose for 2-3 minutes before the camera shuts down to prevent the sensor overheating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted May 22, 2011 Share #4 Posted May 22, 2011 Yes I do astro photography with the M9. I fitted a T ring on an M bayonet from a damaged lens that someone gave me for parts. Now I use the M9 on a Celestron 2000mm f/10 telescope ( C8) with the visoflex. No problem with infinity focus. I drilled tiny holes in the T ring and cut thread in them, then mounted the bayonet ring onto it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leebert Posted May 23, 2011 Share #5 Posted May 23, 2011 Problem: you can only expose for 2-3 minutes before the camera shuts down to prevent the sensor overheating. JAAPV - That is an interesting fact - I did not know that was the reason why exposures were cut off at a certain point. And it now makes sense that there is a second 'dark' exposure used to mask the noise, rather than a generic/standardized mask, as the thermal conditions will vary significantly from one shooting environment to another. Finally, now that I think about it, I would hypothesize that CMOS is inherently less inclined towards thermal noise than CCD, which would explain the relative ISO performance differential on other cameras. Is there more technical information on this that you are aware of? I would like to learn more. Merci, Lee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted May 23, 2011 Share #6 Posted May 23, 2011 Yes I do astro photography with the M9. I fitted a T ring on an M bayonet from a damaged lens that someone gave me for parts. Now I use the M9 on a Celestron 2000mm f/10 telescope ( C8) with the visoflex. No problem with infinity focus. I drilled tiny holes in the T ring and cut thread in them, then mounted the bayonet ring onto it. Very interesting. Can you post photos? I have been trying to figure out how to do telescope work with the M9, and to this point concluding a DSLR was a better choice. Last astro I did were of the so-called "super moon" with a 20 year old Meade ETX and a 5dii. I have poopoohed live view but it was essential to getting a precise focus. I have also done some star trails w/o telescope and have been frustrated by the M9 inability to to turn off long exposure noise reduction. If you have some insights on how to deal with these issues, it would be great to hear them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindolfi Posted May 23, 2011 Share #7 Posted May 23, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) WeinschelA, at the moment I am on a trip so can not dig out examples. It does work, but only on planets and moon, because of the limitations of long exposure with the M9. I also use a 5Dii with liveview and that is much easier. On top of that the shutter of the M9 produces more vibrations than that of the 5Dii in LiveView mode on the Celestron. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar B Posted May 25, 2011 Share #8 Posted May 25, 2011 Im just "dreaming" ... about matching an M9 with a Takahashi FS ... I certainly would not consider using one with "any" horrid mirrored telescope my Astronomy moto reads "Gentlemen only ever use Refractors" Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyb Posted May 25, 2011 Share #9 Posted May 25, 2011 Hi Klaus, as a member of SAT (Società astronomica ticinese) I invite you to our yearly Star Party held in Dötra from July 29 to 31, an enchanting little village in Blenio valley. It's probably the last spot in Ticino with acceptable dark sky conditions. I only have a 40 cm Dobson for visual astronomy, but there are many "professionals" of astrophotography to help you out. I'm not an expert but an old Digital Rebel (Canon) would probably be a better solution for this purpose. The reasons were already mentioned (overheating, power drain, noise). You certainly don't need a FF Camera. Even a webcam produces incredible images with the right software. For the time being, I prefer an old fashioned Messier Marathon, trying to cach photons with my light basket after a short travel of a few million years... Beste Grüsse aus einem leicht bewölkten Tessin, Andreas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k-hawinkler Posted May 25, 2011 Share #10 Posted May 25, 2011 The D700 also works pretty well D700: Milky Way over Easter Island [Page 1]: Nikon D3 - D1 / D700 Forum: Digital Photography Review D700+14-24: Milky Way over Easter Island [Page 1]: Nikon D3 - D1 / D700 Forum: Digital Photography Review K-H Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar B Posted May 25, 2011 Share #11 Posted May 25, 2011 Mmmm i fear we are veering way of topic here ... many astro - photographers use modified Canons ... which do the job ... most use web-cams and stack images . Other more serious deep sky imagers use cooled dedicated CCD cams ... im sure this is not news for many. For more info on Astro photo ... try "Cloudy nights" "UKAI" or "SGL" Brian Lovely shots of the MW over Easter Island ... i take it you did not go back for the eclipse Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luxikon Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share #12 Posted May 26, 2011 My question is whether it is possible to use M cameras with Visoflex for example on an 8'' f/5 Newton reflector.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_M Posted May 26, 2011 Share #13 Posted May 26, 2011 Yes, it should be possible to use an M camera on the telescope. Don't just look for T adapters and don't just look at the Visoflex. You might try searching for the adapters Leitz made for attaching the M cameras to microscopes. I've seen a few for sale on-line and at ebay. The eye pieces used on telescopes are along the same standards as used on microscopes (standard inch sizes, actually). As I recall, Leitz had an adapter which allowed an eyepiece in one direction and then the M camera in another. With that, you would have an ideal setup for a simple, commercial telescope. There is a load of background material about amateur telescope imaging available with a web search. Try *** Welcome to Starizona.com *** at a starting point with a store which sells loads of equipment and has summary references on ccd imaging, etc. They also have many adapters. If that, and links don't keep you occupied for a couple days, let us know and I'll suggest more. If someone is interested in "serious" amateur astro imaging, there is special equipment out there. First off, you really want a camera with NO filters in front of the ccd sensor. Many years back, Canon even marketed a version of the 20D (was it called 20Da?) which did without the IR filter and probably no AA filter. It was marketed through astronomy stores mostly. For M cameras, I would guess that you are better served by the M8 without IR filter than the M9. And, for those who are really serious, look at the offerings from Santa Barbara Instruments (SBIG) at SBIG Santa Barbara Instrument Group. They have an extensive offering of Kodak ccd cameras for astronomy imaging. These even come with Peltier cooling units to cool the CCD array and improve sensitivity. And, they are often 1/2 the cost of an M9. Good luck and wishing you clear skies. RM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_M Posted May 26, 2011 Share #14 Posted May 26, 2011 Im just "dreaming" ... about matching an M9 with a Takahashi FS ... I certainly would not consider using one with "any" horrid mirrored telescope my Astronomy moto reads "Gentlemen only ever use Refractors" Brian Sorry, I cannot let this comment pass without answering. As a scientist involved with astronomical imaging and fabrication of optics for many decades, I feel compelled to challenge this comment..... The "real" large astronomical research telescopes are all reflecting optics. There are several limitations to refractive optics. They have limited bandwidth since the refractive index is wavelength dependent (ie chromatic aberation). They can only be made of moderate size before the weight of the glass distorts the surface too much (The Yerkes observatory refractor, built ~100 years is the worlds largest). And, other aberations..... The issue with reflectors is not the reflecting optics but that they typically have a central obscuration. This central obscuration and the spider support structure causes the loss of contrast and star patterns. But there are reflective designs which avoid this by using offset (non obscured) optics designs. A satellite TV, offset dish is a low frequency example of this. End of rant..... RM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luxikon Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share #15 Posted May 26, 2011 Hi Robert, thanks for the info and the links. Especially Starizona is very informative for a beginner like me. You wrote: Don't just look for T adapters and don't just look at the Visoflex. You might try searching for the adapters Leitz made for attaching the M cameras to microscopes. Is it for optical reasons? Can't one focus to infinity with the Visoflex? I found a Leitz MIKAS microscope adapter in the German bay. But its insertion tube is only 23,3mm in diameter. Isn't that a bit narrow and so limiting my field of view? And it must be adapted to my 1.25'' mount. Did Leitz offer other adapters with thicker tubes? By the way with my 8'' f/5 Newton I want to photograph the moon and the planets in the beginning. I hope I don't annoy you with my naive questions. Best regards Klaus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar B Posted May 26, 2011 Share #16 Posted May 26, 2011 Sorry, I cannot let this comment pass without answering. As a scientist involved with astronomical imaging and fabrication of optics for many decades, I feel compelled to challenge this comment..... The "real" large astronomical research telescopes are all reflecting optics. There are several limitations to refractive optics. They have limited bandwidth since the refractive index is wavelength dependent (ie chromatic aberation). They can only be made of moderate size before the weight of the glass distorts the surface too much (The Yerkes observatory refractor, built ~100 years is the worlds largest). And, other aberations..... The issue with reflectors is not the reflecting optics but that they typically have a central obscuration. This central obscuration and the spider support structure causes the loss of contrast and star patterns. But there are reflective designs which avoid this by using offset (non obscured) optics designs. A satellite TV, offset dish is a low frequency example of this. End of rant..... RM Hi Robert I completely agree with all you have said and know that "mirrored devices" are used in all forms of astronomical research including "Hubble" and "Herschel" and all the vast ground mounted telescopes ... VLTs ... the list goes on. I myself have tried most forms of reflecting scopes SCTs , Maks, Newts ... right up to a 16" diameter ... i did not care for any. Central obstructions .. spider vains .. constant collimation .. cool down times .. size .. weight .. poorer contrast all these things have put me off these designs forever. However when i turned my attention to apo refractors.... i knew i had seen the light Crystal sharp contrasty images , were beheld , focusing became immediate , so to me its the quality of the image that counts and not the quantity. The best views i believe are obtained using a well configured "real" CaF2 Fluorite objective. All mirrors in time will rot ... so the first telescope on earth was a refractor and the last on earth will be a refractor Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert_M Posted May 26, 2011 Share #17 Posted May 26, 2011 Hi Robert, thanks for the info and the links. Especially Starizona is very informative for a beginner like me. You wrote: Don't just look for T adapters and don't just look at the Visoflex. You might try searching for the adapters Leitz made for attaching the M cameras to microscopes. Is it for optical reasons? Can't one focus to infinity with the Visoflex? I found a Leitz MIKAS microscope adapter in the German bay. But its insertion tube is only 23,3mm in diameter. Isn't that a bit narrow and so limiting my field of view? And it must be adapted to my 1.25'' mount. Did Leitz offer other adapters with thicker tubes? By the way with my 8'' f/5 Newton I want to photograph the moon and the planets in the beginning. I hope I don't annoy you with my naive questions. Best regards Klaus Klaus, I assume you have a 1.25" eye piece mount you must adapt. Is that right? And, how much room do you have between the focal plane of the telescope and the mounting point - ie, what is the max room you have? You can estimate that the focal point of the objective lens is inside the eye piece by the distance of the eye piece focal length (that is, the eye piece is imaging the focus place of the objective lens). The real question is: do you have enough room for the visoflex assembly? The visoflex is 68.8mm front of the visoflex to the camera focal plane. You need at least that much room. Can the eye piece mount be removed to give more room? If you have the room, then your best bet is to find an adapter, or combination of adapters, which goes from the telescope tube to a LTM male tube (39mm x 26TPI). This old Leica thread mount standard was used for many interfaces, not just Leica cameras. For example, the original Novoflex follow focus telephoto pistol mounts used LTM as their mount before attaching the various camera mounts. Their early bellows used this standard also. I also recall that enlarger lenses and lens plates used this standard. After getting to a male LTM, it is an easy matter to use the standard LTM-M mount adapter which is readily available. My original remarks were aimed at opening up your search for interface solutions. Leitz was originally a microscope manufacturer. Later, they made all sorts of scientific optical equipment. So I was suggesting looking for interfaces from that equipment to cameras. They did, after all, make the MD model (M without windows) for attaching to optical equipment, not as some inexpensive M model. Leica still offer adapters for their current Televid sport optics to attach cameras (at least they are available new at some dealers). But those probably don't work on your telescope. After you figure out if you have room for the visoflex solution, try looking at the used equipment market for adapter solutions. Camera stores, ebay, web searches, etc. Let us know roughly how much room you have and if this is viable. An alternate solution: The output of the eye piece is a parallel, plane image. You can just mount up any lens on the camera, set the focus of the camera to infinity, and take a picture through the eye piece. However, you image will only be the size of the eyepiece lens. Good luck. Keep us posted. RM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared Posted May 27, 2011 Share #18 Posted May 27, 2011 Klaus, For lunar and planetary imaging, a camera like the M9 is not the best choice. You are likely to have more success with an inexpensive web cam. Having a wide field of view--such as with the M9 or a digital SLR, is great for deep sky objects, but doesn't help at all when imaging Jupiter, Saturn, or Mars. A simple web cam, with it's tiny pixels and high frame rate, will allow you to take thousands of images in just a few minutes and stack them together to get a much sharper result than just a few subframes on a more traditional camera. And it wouldn't cost you any more money than the adapters for the M9. Check out forums like "cloudynights" or "ice in space" for tips on how to get started in lunar and planetary imaging. I do more deep sky astrophotography, myself, and that is where large chip cameras come into their own. The preferred entry point to this type of photography is a Canon DSLR with Liveview. The Canon is the first choice because of the good high-ISO performance and because the Nikons have a blurring filter that is applied to even RAW frames to try and combat hot pixels--it tends to remove or dim faint stars. Look up "mode 3" and "Nikon" to read about this issue. There is a workaround for the problem, but it is somewhat cumbersome. The relatively high thermal signal and read noise (when compared to the Nikon and Canon DSLR's) of the M9 make it a poor choice for long exposure, deep sky imaging. In fact, if you progress beyond a DSLR the next step would be a dedicated, cooled astronomical CCD camera such as those manufactured by SBIG, Apogee, and FInger Lakes Instrumentation. Best of luck, whatever your choice! By the way, if you still want to try out your scope with an M9, you will need more than just a way to connect your camera to your scope. You will also need a coma corrector (unless you want to stick with just planetary imaging). Also, some Newtonians will not reach focus with with a camera attached--you need a fairly low profile focuser or a scope that was designed with imaging in mind--and even those that do may vignette significantly with a full frame camera such as the M9 since the secondary mirrors are usually optimized/sized for visual use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared Posted May 27, 2011 Share #19 Posted May 27, 2011 Also forgot to ask... Does your telescope mount track in Right Ascension? If not, you may find planetary imaging challenging since the planets can drift out of the field of view rather quickly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luxikon Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share #20 Posted May 27, 2011 I've got the GSO 200mm F/5 Newton. It has a 2" Crayford eye piece mount. I intend to buy either the Celestron advanced GT Mount - GoTo or the Skywatcher EQ6 Syntrek. I think they both should be able to track in Right Ascension. Any suggestions? Meanwhile I've decided to learn first to use my equipment (if it's all together at last) properly in the visual way. And I'll be looking for experienced astronomers in my neighborhood. Thank you both. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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