PDN Review of the M8

[ken_tanaka]

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I posted this notice not to stick anyone in the eye, but rather to give folks here a heads-up to material that might be interesting to both prospective and current M8 owners. The PDN review is quite even-handed and pays homage to the camera's admirable qualities. But it's also frank and honest about its flaws. On the whole it's perhaps the best such piece I've seen so far.

 

My hat tips to those of you who have purchased and truly enjoy an M8. May you have many years of enjoyment with the camera.

[canlogic]

I don't think anyone was being snotty with you at least I wasn't, it was aimed at the article.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

No. thanks Ken , nothing directed at you at all and i do like PDN very much.

[larry]

Actually it's my impression that they had abundant input from thousands of M photographers around the world. I think that two other, much scarcer, factors led to the M8's issues; time and money. Leica's protracted sclerotic resistance of the concept of a "digital M" cost it much time that might have been productively devoted to engineering development and development of technical alliances with other companies. Meanwhile the company's dwindling coffers and management missteps forced it to bring the M8 to market a bit before it was really ready.

 

Perhaps they will earn enough from sales to the early adopter gottahavits to create an "M9", or at least a refined M8 (maybe an "M8r" -- the "r" signifying "ready") within my lifetime. I'm eager to buy a digital M that lives up to the M tradition.

 

Hi Ken,

 

I don't think it was the review that set some people off, but rather your comments about the M8 (quoted above). From my perspective, I'm enjoying my M8 and think its deficiencies are overblown in light of its incredible capabilities. It may take Leica years to improve the camera, so in the meantime I'll put up with a few warts.

 

Larry

[Jamie Roberts]

So far, the M8 has been able to deliver some things that I have had a harder time deilivering with my Canon 1-series cameras and lenses.

 

I could not have said this better myself.

 

I haven't read the PDN article yet; I'll suscribe and see what they're saying. Sean's is the wisest course on that.

 

But honestly--and with all due respect, Ken--if the M8 doesn't "live up to its photographic tradition," I'd be very hard-pressed to name a digital system that comes closer.

 

Yes, there are problems with IR. There are always problems with technology. And I'd still like weather sealing, though I've had mine out in rain and snow. And I'd like the camera to work without the plate (that is annoying, but fixable).

 

But the thing is an absolute joy to use--I've never missed a peice of gear in for service before!--and the files are astound me more every day, whether they're filtered or not.

[Guest magyarman]

The funny thing is who SAID there will BE a M9. It may never happen

 

This very truth. When was I askit mine stockist after just Fotokina he was tell me what Leica compagny got so many already sale they I must to wait since Aogust before I can to take for mine self. This week he tell me I can to take in one monath mabe shorter. He tell is probably Leica wont to take money from M8 what they need to make it M9.

[geoffreyg]

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Well put JC, you hit the nail on the head. But I haven't been this excited about a camera in years, and am having a blast - recreational shooting and more thoughtfully so as well. Yes, there are lots of other answers that work better in this respect or that (pick your preferences), but none to my mind that give the small size, ease of use, precision and the option to make any shot of maximum quality. That's a tough act, and one that Leica pulled off well. For that reason, the camera, while a bit quirky, is a dream to use and to keep close at hand.

[LJL]

But honestly--and with all due respect, Ken--if the M8 doesn't "live up to its photographic tradition," I'd be very hard-pressed to name a digital system that comes closer.

 

Adding a bit more to this.....if Leica does not live up the photographic tradition with this M8, what makes you think they will be able to produce an M9? (Really trying NOT to sound cynical there, folks.)

 

Ken, I also was not jumpiing on you or your comments about the PDN article. My comments were made as much out of the same weariness of reading so much more about the negatives and the future that folks seem to be missing the positives and the present. Again, I am not giving too much credit to Leica, as they have some things to fix, and most of it can probably be done in firmware, except the IR issue and filters. They will get on it, I trust, or there will be a lot of folks just talking nostalgically about Leica. They have some of the best optics and mechanicals going right now. They really need to get further along the curve on electronics and firmware options. The M8 can deliver.

 

LJ

[woodyspedden]

What i like about the M8 is it actually makes me think and work a little harder. now that sounds like a bad thing but it is not it makes me work smarter and be more creative. i shot the 1dsMKII and all the canons and my work got boring , why you ask i was a button pusher and you get lazy. photograghy is about being a part of the image you create so working it is so much more fun and liberating. i have been a Pro so long that i gone into serious funks in my work for maybe months at a time because it got boring. Having fun and passion is what photography should be about, I know we all love the gear and admittedly I am a gearhead too but at some point you need to go shoot the thing and the M8 is just a joy too shoot . I actually look forward to go shoot some boring jobs. Not all of it is the glamour stuff

 

I am totally with Guy on this (and many other issues as well). If you come at life from a perspective of absolutes you will spend your life beating yourself with chains and sticks. There is no such thing as a "perfect" anything. Life is all about trade-offs. Astronauts risk their lives every time they "fly" but the joy of being part of the life experience represents a "trade-off" they are willing to make.

 

The mags and other reviewers need to start from the perspective that the design criteria for the M family has always been about small, lightweight, unobtrusive bodies coupled to state of the art optics. The precise manufacturing required and the size of the market for those products were such that Leica products became very expensive. (Currency rates are not doing us any favor either)

 

In reality Leica is not in competition with Canon or Nikon in the truest sense since neither of those folks build a small, lightweight, unobtrusive camera coupled to world class optics, whether rangefinder or reflex. They build large reflex bodies coupled to very good and very large AF optics. No one would dare challenge whether Nikon or Leica build optics to truly compete with the Leica optics whether M or R. But they build cameras for the masses and the masses are not about state of the art image quality. However for the markets they serve they produce cameras that meet the design goals thoroughly.

 

Personally I use my DMR and M8 for 90% of my shooting and sometimes I think I may be an idiot for having so much invested in the R system. But we have need for Macro and Telephoto images and there it is hard to beat the R. I love both the body and the glass so my solution is to sell off the lenses which are in competition with the M8 so my ultimate "kit" allows me to use both systems for what they are best at doing.

 

I will probably always have a D200 or the like for shooting my fast moving grandkids, sporting events and the like because there I need the auto focus or put up with dozens of throwaways.

 

I love my M8. I feel at home with it. I produce superb quality image files with it. When I travel to India in the fall I will be taking it and four lenses in a relatively tiny bag which I can carry all day, every day, as I tour that old and storied country. No matter what else the reflex cameras, including the DMR, can do, at 70 years old I could not lug that gear around all day for 20 days so to me the argument is mute.

 

So buy the best for what you really need in your shooting scenario.

 

Damn the beasts who say all and tell nothing.

 

Thanks for listening to my rant

 

Woody

[thpeters]

Go out and shoot the darn thing and have some fun. frankly i am having a blast with this damn thing and i won't even read the article it will just piss me off at some point.

 

 

Hi Guy,

 

I could not say this better then you do, I am 100 % agree on all what you wrote, I hope that a lot of members who have already the M8 show us there work.

 

I have orderd my M8 now, with the Apo-Summicron 90 mm f/2 ASPH and the 28 mm f/2.8 ASPH Elmarit, I let you know when it arrived and show you soon pictures.

 

Still wondering if I also should go for the Tri-Elamar 14/16/18 ? or the 21 mm f/2.8 ASPH for my arcitecture photography, but maybe you or other members could give me some insight in that?

 

 

Theo Peters

[spersky]

The loud voices here already have the camera, and most seem very happy with it. I am sure some might be trying to convince themselves that they did not spend 5k on a lemon, but that can be found in any buyer's remorse situation. Other people genuinly love the camera, and I am happy it is available for them to use.

 

I have used the information from people and objective reviewers, and have decided that the Leica M8 is very far from what I expected and cancelled my pre-order. Instead I used the 12k which I had saved for the M8 and 2 lenses, and I bought a few really nice lenses for my 1dsMark2. Plus, I had money left over. I consider myself very lucky that I was able to get objective information about the M8 so I could make my own decision based on my needs.

 

One thing I need, is to have a hassle free reliable camera with minimal problems. Based on numerous objective reviews, I found that the M8 does not fill that roll. I am sure there are other people who feel the way I do, and in the end it does hurt Leica's finacial situation to some degree.

 

So I guess I am not waiting for the M9 anymore. I spent the money elsewhere. The images that I can obtain are very good indeed. Life is too short too wait for a company to get things perfect, as many people have said. I think the main point of all these discussions and reviews is to allow more potential buyers to weigh the pros and cons of a significant purchase.

[woodyspedden]

Who are the voices on this thread trying to convince? and of what? And why the screechingly high volume? And why so stunningly defensive about something most haven't even read?

 

Steven

 

If you are referring to me let me make something perfectly clear:

 

A. I was trying to take the debate to a level where perhaps some readers could be convinced that the M8 was simply one tool in a toolkit. When I look at it from the perspective of a small, unobtrusive, body with a spectacular lens I see no peer......indeed I don't see anyone even trying to compete.......This doesn't mean the M8 has no competition but that until you define the rules of engagement you can't begin to evaluate them side by side. So I stand by my remarks ..........if small, lightweight and coupled to world class glass is your deal......buy the M8....There really is no choice.

 

If this is your definition of ridiculous partisanship then you need to look inside yourself my friend........I did not infer any such thing.

 

When it comes to areas where the need is such that AF and high speed is paramount, I think I made it clear that I would use my D200 and Nikon AF Glass (Go for Canon if you like.......just so happens I already had the Nikon stuff) Frankly I don't give a damn other than making sure I have the right tools for the job at hand. With my whirlawind grandkids,if I want decent keepers I better have the Nikon AF (or fill in the blanks for your favorite Canon, Pentax etc to get some keepers from this type of shoot.

 

My issue with you is that your tactic to succeed is to demean all comers to lower the playing field to a scrum. i won't bite sir. When you have something constructive to say that advances the chances for all of us to have better images as a result of taking your advice then I will be waiting in the wings to send you praise. Until then I see just one more troll trying to make life more difficult for those trying to add to the value of life for other photographers. If I am wrong then talk to the moderator and I will be happy to leave this forum

 

Woody Spedden

Fort Collins, CO

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Don't care about the money at all , the images are what convince me. The 25 k I put into this could have easily gone anywhere i wanted it to. BTW i can sell it all tomorrow and still have 25 grand so the money point is frankly a lame comment. Many folks here make very good money and are not worried about such things.

[Jager]

Who are the voices on this thread trying to convince? and of what? And why the screechingly high volume? And why so stunningly defensive about something most haven't even read?

 

I think it's far less about being defensive than just a desire that people - especially reviewers - who would deign to opine on the M8 get their facts straight. At least that's what it is for me.

 

I bought my M8 in early January, with complete information about the various teething problems. Far from being the lemon, or the great compromise, that is oftentimes suggested, it is the most exciting photographic purchase I've ever made. I've been a passionate photographer for many years, but I've never before had a camera be the first thing on my mind when I awake in the morning. It's really kind of embarrassing. But the thing truly does rock.

 

While I'm an unabashed supporter of what Leica has wrought, I'd be the last to suggest that it's for everybody. Hey, it's a rangefinder and not everyone is keen on those. But what frustrates me - just a little - is when otherwise smart people continue to display their ignorance rather than their insight. The IR issue - the most-cited reason for waiting for an M9 - is unsolvable within Leica's broad design parameters (make a digital M, using the same basic form factor as previous M's, and able to use nearly all existing M-mount lenses), given the current state of technology. Leica didn't blow it. They made a conscious engineering decision. One that, with the benefit of hindsight, most of us think was correct. The only thing Leica should have done differently, in my opinion, is to have prepared for and communicated that better.

 

In the end, it doesn't much matter to me whether the PDN reviewer, or anyone else, cares for the M8. I'd just like to see them to get their facts somewhat in order.

 

All the best,

 

Jeff

[mwilliamsphotography]

I completely subscribe to this assessment:

 

"I was trying to take the debate to a level where perhaps some readers could be convinced that the M8 was simply one tool in a toolkit."

 

BINGO !!

 

I have 4 basic digital systems in my "commercial" tool box for stuff like table top, location and production stills, plus wedding/events/portraits. For the most part the advertising work HAS to be digital now. Weddings can be a mix. 3 of the 4 systems are represented in the attached photo below. The 4th is a Mamiya RZ Pro II with an Aptus 75 digital back that I used to take the posted photo.

 

Each has it's place in the work flow. Frankly the M8 is the least relied upon. Plus, it is the least proven. Time will sort that out.

 

Each has it's strengths and weaknesses as well as their unique place in the tool box.

 

The Canon is the speed freak and is the top ISO performer. It's weakness is distortion prone wide angle lenses, it's huge and heavy ... and it's boring to use. It can't hold a candle to MF digital for image quality. I use it for weddings mostly. The DMR couldn't replace it ... I tried.

 

The H3D is the image quality king. It's limited to ISO 400. Everyone who bought a H digital camera was a "beta tester" and continues to be one. A degree from MIT wouldn't hurt. Being new, I had to build this system from scratch. A M8 and everything from 16mm to 90mm including IR filters is a drop in the financial bucket by comparison. Yet, like the Leica M8, the images are worth all the costs and BS.

 

The Aptus/RZ is my studio camera, and is a close second to the H3D/39 in image quality ... but has a very usable ISO 800. The RZ and all the lenses from fisheye to 210 APO was paid for years ago, so the investment was a mere $25,000. : -0 !!! The software was designed on Pluto, and requires you learn the Plutonian language before using it. Until a recent software upgrade, it sometimes produced images with what became known as "Center-folding" ( not the Playboy type : -) where half the image was a different tone/value/color than the other half. Leaf evidently didn't notice this before selling the back, and it was brought to light by Pro users ( sound familiar? ).

 

The Leica M8 was a no-brainer addition. It was the least expensive of the 4 systems. I already had most of the lenses. Just had to add a 24, and I did spring for the 16-18-21 using my 30% discount. If I had to start from scratch, I would have had to think about it harder. Now that I have it, and have used it on jobs, I can say that both the user experience, and the image qualities are unique enough to warrant it's place in the "tool box"

 

Horses for courses ... and in the commercial world of digital ... the horses are all very expensive, high strung, finicky electronic thoroughbreds. Something I hope gets bred out of them sooner than later : -)

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Marc stop showing me that Hassy stuff , your killing me. LOL

 

My next move is M8 and MF that is all i will need and a bank account to support it. ROTFLMAO

 

I do agree almost every system you are a beta tester to some degree and there simply is no way around it. Just look at Vista and the 100,000 thousands of folks that installed it are having immediate issues. This is peanuts compared to that. The only REAL issue on the M8 after all said and done is the IR issue and we already know the answer to this. How it was handled to me at this point who gives a rats you know what. I'm working with it and it is as reliable as any other digital camera, they all break down at some point reason for back up on everything. But it is true just another tool in the box to work with and it is a joy to work with it. i have 2 weeks of corporate event work and already started 3 nights ago and it is doing a beautiful job, hell I simply can't complain about it. I'll add that small bag fact in there. LOL

 

Shot with the 75 lux at 1.4 ISO 640 no flash. It does the job very well

[Rolo]

I completely subscribe to this assessment:

 

I have 4 basic digital systems in my "commercial" tool box

 

Marc,

 

What happened to the CFV then ?

 

Still the dark horse in the cupboard ?

 

Is it a relatively reliable piece of kit ?

 

Rolo

[barjohn]

The M8 sure looks tiny in that photo sort of the colt among the horses:)

[Jager]

The M8 sure looks tiny in that photo sort of the colt among the horses:)

 

Aye! And that's a great part of its charm!

 

Jeff

[Guest guy_mancuso]

It's small, almost half the size of the DMR also which is pretty much like a canon One series camera. Those hassy lenses are HUGE

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