Solar B Posted April 30, 2011 Share #21 Posted April 30, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Andy i would expect that if i had purchased that particular R9/DMR from Fforbes and a problem arose with it within the warranty period that could not be repaired ... then they would surely have to refund its full cost. Here lies a "potential" issue when buying "commission sales" goods from a dealer as it is my understanding that if the product does fail (within warranty) then it is the original owners responsiblity to pay for the repair and "not" the dealer ... its plausible that the original owner in some circumstances may not honour their end of this arrangement . Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 30, 2011 Posted April 30, 2011 Hi Solar B, Take a look here Winding down support for DMR at Solms?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andybarton Posted April 30, 2011 Share #22 Posted April 30, 2011 You need to read the "commission sale" agreement VERY carefully. Ffordes once refused to deal with a faulty lens that I had bought from them (because "I didn't tell them early enough that it was faulty"), so any warranty offered needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, in my experience. I have also (since) bought stuff from them that clearly hadn't been checked by them at all, despite it being given an "E+" rating. They did refund my money that time, but not my return postage. As always, caveat emptor... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
masjah Posted April 30, 2011 Share #23 Posted April 30, 2011 Andy i would expect that if i had purchased that particular R9/DMR from Fforbes and a problem arose with it within the warranty period that could not be repaired ... then they would surely have to refund its full cost. Here lies a "potential" issue when buying "commission sales" goods from a dealer as it is my understanding that if the product does fail (within warranty) then it is the original owners responsiblity to pay for the repair and "not" the dealer ... its plausible that the original owner in some circumstances may not honour their end of this arrangement . Brian Brian My understanding was that with a commission sale, the dealer's commission charge included some sort of insurance to cover the guarantee period - basically the dealer takes over the sale and consequential responsibility; the difference between this and simply selling to the dealer is that the seller has to wait for their money until the goods are sold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar B Posted April 30, 2011 Share #24 Posted April 30, 2011 Dearest Andy...i,m alarmed to hear of your experience...as the whole reason of buying from a dealer is having some reassurane ... having seen for myself the amount of parcels a dealer is delivered for commission sales its perhaps not surprising that they do not have the time to check each individual item , so "not" a good state of affairs. Dear John ... one commission letter that i received...clearly stated that i would be held responsible for the repair cost to the item if required within the warranty period ... hence my discomfort which this arrangement. Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posto 6 Posted April 30, 2011 Author Share #25 Posted April 30, 2011 If that is the general experience of buying in the UK, I would suggest buying in Germany instead, where the legislative and compliance frameworks appear far stronger... and still in the EU, so no tax issues. My experiences with Meister Camera in Berlin have been really exemplary and straightforward- with no attempts at duplicitous doublespeak or misleading promises! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted April 30, 2011 Share #26 Posted April 30, 2011 The simple rule is do not invest more than you can afford to lose, just like the stock market. They have long ago given up being the company that kept the 50 year old cameras working. There was a time in the 80`s when they would make a new batch of transport mechanisms for M3`s when stock ran low. Gone gone gone. Enterprising people can take parts from donor cameras and I suppose do that with electronics. But the volume is so low, finding donors is difficult. Film will be the same ( now I`m wait for rebuttal ) . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
masjah Posted April 30, 2011 Share #27 Posted April 30, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Dearest Andy...i,m alarmed to hear of your experience...as the whole reason of buying from a dealer is having some reassurane ... having seen for myself the amount of parcels a dealer is delivered for commission sales its perhaps not surprising that they do not have the time to check each individual item , so "not" a good state of affairs. Dear John ... one commission letter that i received...clearly stated that i would be held responsible for the repair cost to the item if required within the warranty period ... hence my discomfort which this arrangement. Brian Brian, that's news to me, and definitely worth knowing about - thanks! Edit: I've just looked on Ffordes' web site, and here is an extract from their terms and conditions with regard to commission sales: We charge a set 20% commission: what do you get for that? This will pay for any credit card charges incurred when someone purchases your equipment with a credit card. It will also include the VAT we have to pay the government for the service we are providing. It will advertise your equipment in our weekly advertisement in the Amateur Photographer magazine, which is updated every week. It will advertise your equipment on our own Web-Site. It will guarantee your equipment. It will give you the expertise of over 38 years of selling photographic equipment with knowledgeable staff and a full back up service. so it looks very much as if your liability as a seller (and your rights as a buyer) depend on the particular dealer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted April 30, 2011 Share #28 Posted April 30, 2011 Directive 1999/44/EC, May 1999 [...] These new laws will ensure that all new consumer goods, including cars, carry at least a two-year warranty and used consumer goods have a minimum of a one-year warranty. [...] The directive calls for [...] a guarantee of at least one year for used goods (except those sold by a private seller) [...] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posto 6 Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share #29 Posted May 2, 2011 Has anyone ever dealt with this company? They seem the sort of people that could be of a lot of help keeping DMRs functioning Repair Pricing - Industrial Electronic Repair . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted May 3, 2011 Share #30 Posted May 3, 2011 It will guarantee your equipment. Which is stated quite clearly under 'used grading' as: "All second-hand equipment is thoroughly checked prior to being offered for sale and is guaranteed for six months parts and labour." Having stated this, it has to be adhered to. I'm actually rather surprised that many dealers will guarantee old equipment (Leica or otherwise) as repair costs can often outweigh purchase price quite quickly. I've noticed that a few dealers actually offer some older items on an 'as seen' basis with a ten day, or similar, return period which I have to say seems perfectly reasonable to me. I have no idea how long electronic equipment is viable to keep running from a manufacturer's point of view but I believe that the EU may require a support period of 5 years from the cessation of manufacture (if anyone knows otherwise I'd be interested) and I assume that this applies to goods made within the EU (easier to enforce) and good imported into the EU (harder to enforce). The DMR sounds like rather a complicated case though and I wonder when it officially ceased production? [i also wonder, if I'm right about the 5 year requirement, whether component suppliers might 'have to' support Leica by providing spares for this period - although I imagine having to and actually being forced to do so are rather different!]. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 3, 2011 Share #31 Posted May 3, 2011 I have asked Leica for an official reaction. I will post when and if it appears. I might add that problems like these will not apply to the M9 and M8. It is obvious that parts availability is much more difficult to ensure for a product that was only produced in a series of 3600 and by another manufacturer too than it is for cameras that have been built by tens of thousands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted May 3, 2011 Share #32 Posted May 3, 2011 I believe that the EU may require a support period of 5 years from the cessation of manufacture (if anyone knows otherwise I'd be interested) and I assume that this applies to goods made within the EU (easier to enforce) and good imported into the EU (harder to enforce). No. See link in post #28. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posto 6 Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share #33 Posted May 3, 2011 I contacted ACS Industrial Services last night (see link above http://www.acsindustrial.com/repair-pricing.php ). They were reasonably positive that they should be able to help, but need a motherboard to be sent to them to examine and get a free repair estimate. Does anyone have an old defective one that could be sent? If this appears too much hassle for posters, I would be willing to follow through if this helps- or (much better) perhaps someone can get Solms to give them a try- the only apparent cost is the postage! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted May 3, 2011 Share #34 Posted May 3, 2011 I believe that the EU may require a support period of 5 years from the cessation of manufacture (if anyone knows otherwise I'd be interested) and I assume that this applies to goods made within the EU (easier to enforce) and good imported into the EU (harder to enforce). Actually there is no such legislation in the EU. The vendor has to keep a supply of spare parts to support a product within the warranty period, but otherwise they are under no obligation. A vendor may voluntarily guarantee support for 5, 10, or even more years (and thus enter a contractual obligation), but EU legislation doesn’t require it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 3, 2011 Share #35 Posted May 3, 2011 That might interest Leica. I would mail this to cs<at>leica-camera.com if I were you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted May 3, 2011 Share #36 Posted May 3, 2011 Hi A skilled technician should be able to replace a component or salvage a part of a printed circuit board, without real difficulty. The first significant problem is identifying what is actually wrong and what needs or may need to be replaced, one failing component may take out others. The second significant problem is obtaining the replacement components, they may be e.g. semi custom components and their supplier may neither have spares nor be able to reproduce them. If the (DMR) production line was still running then any parts supply problem might have needed a circuit board redesign, to allow a different part to be used, this happens. Some critical parts may have two suppliers with physically separate factories to allow accidents to be tolerated, like the problems in Japan. Any low volume piece of equipment is exposed, not just DMRs. If a Canon or Nikon DSLR fails it is sometimes simpler to buy a new one. Use the camera while it still works, keep fingers crossed, & you can still go back to film, if the DMR fails. I do like the DMR shots, donno why. Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
masjah Posted May 3, 2011 Share #37 Posted May 3, 2011 Another problem might be whether a company whose primary business is repairing complex electronic equipment would be able to dismantle and reassenble safely something that is also a complex piece of photographic equipment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted May 3, 2011 Share #38 Posted May 3, 2011 The second significant problem is obtaining the replacement components, they may be e.g. semi custom components and their supplier may neither have spares nor be able to reproduce them.A lot of devices on that company's reference list seem to be industrial devices with little if any "onboard intelligence". On the other hand, the number of microcontroller parts and programmed logic on a DMR board is much higher. If any of these are the cause of a problem, good luck fixing that. BTW, I wonder what is so attractive about the abandoned DMR+R system that you seem to be willing to keep it alive at any cost and are even buying spares and defective units for parts. After all, that kind of money could take you to digital medium format territory with ease. Just wondering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted May 3, 2011 Share #39 Posted May 3, 2011 Yesterday I called Solms Customer Service to enquire about DMR repairs, and was informed by Gabrielle that Leica are no longer able to repair the electronics components of these due to the lack of availability of parts... If leica cannout source components, cannablisation makes repairs more difficult, but the electronics should be really reliable and just not go wrong. Leica did not say they would not repair, merely they had not (sic all) parts? But other components e.g. any liquid crystal displays etc. are fragile & may fail much more frequently, they may be easy to swap, but the cannibal may be as bad as origional. Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posto 6 Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share #40 Posted May 3, 2011 To answer Nightfire above, the ability to use the wonderful R lenses is the first reason. The S series lenses are much larger, slower and far less versatile, especially for available light. The M lenses are obvious alternatives, but not so in many focal lengths I have and regularly use. Until very recently, Leica developed their R-lenses far more extensively than their M-lenses, and it is these that I have. Additionally, the ability to switch from film to digital during shots is another very useful facility- using R lenses on other cameras involves in many cases changing the mounts, as well as negating some of their features. To be frank, although the cost in maintaining the DMR could be high, it will still be less than jettisoning everything just because Leica abruptly and unwisely decided to drop the development of their R range. It will also cost far less (and far more enjoyable in use) than buying into the S-system, which is not really suitable nor comparable in purpose and objectives. I did try the M8 - and the M9, which, although very nice, are anyway not suitable cameras for many of my best recent R lenses (280/4, 70-180/2.8, 19/2.8, etc). In my mind, Leica should encourage a third-party provider to come up with a DMR-2 type of solution over the coming couple of years. This would cost Leica little, be very gratefully received by clients- and open up the option of developing an upgraded R series of lenses in due course, thereby addressing the main deficiency of the redoubtable M-series. Finally, although only a recent convert to the DMR, I can see why Doug Herr is so enthusiastic about the results. As long as the DMR can be used, I will be happy- although I would of course also be very keen on an upgraded solution when and if it materializes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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