BlackDE Posted March 31, 2011 Share #1 Posted March 31, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi, can anyone explain the difference between these models? Thank you. Cheers, Bernhard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Hi BlackDE, Take a look here M4 vs. M4-2 vs. M4-P?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
adan Posted March 31, 2011 Share #2 Posted March 31, 2011 Here's one attempt: M4 - built 1968-1975, mostly in Germany at the original Wetzlar factory. A camera designed to combine features of the M3 and M2 into one model to simplify the line. First M with a rewind crank instead of a knob. First M (except for some special M2-Rs) with the quickload prongs instead of a takeup spool. All M4s have a self-timer, 4 framelines for 35-50-90-135 lenses, old-style Leica script engraving on top plate. Most are chrome, some are black paint, a very small number are black chrome - also a very small number built at the Canadian factory. The M4s of any kind were discontinued during 1975-1977. Leica briefly killed the whole rangefinder line as "old-fashioned" after the M5/CL. Total production about 60,000 _________________________________________________ In 1978, Leitz Canada revived the M4 design, modified to be cheaper to build, as the M4-2. Built through 1980. Actually the rarest "M4" with total production of 16,000. Canada "needed" the M line because their jobs depended on making M lenses. Despite the "rarity" (and they aren't hard to find) - usually inexpensive because they have a "rep" as a cheaper camera not up to the original M4 quality (and not "Built in Germany"), and without the metering of the M6, and without the extra frames of the M4-P (see below) The primary differences between the M4-2 and the original M4 are: > no self-timer (thus a tad lighter) > much simplified top engraving - just a fatter and larger "Leitz" script. Serial number moves to the hot shoe. (oh, and the shoe becomes "hot" for the first time) > ornate chrome-metal film speed reminder dial on back replaced by gray plastic disk for writing the ISO on with pencil > miscellaneous other small cost-cutting changes - e.g. plastic parts in the frame counter ratchet > steel gearing in part of the wind mechanism, instead of brass, to take the wear and tear of an accessory motor - supposedly makes camera not as smooth as original M4 for manual winding. > a hole added to the inner bottom plate for motor linkage > an accessory motor (if that wasn't obvious by now ) > Almost all in black chrome, with 1,000 in gold for Oscar Barnack's 100 birthday (1979). ______________ M4-P 1981-1987 Still built in Canada except for the last few built back in Germany, overlapping the first M6s. About 80% black chrome, 20% silver chrome. 22,000 total Differences from the M4-2 (otherwise, identical): > adds framelines for 28 and 75 lenses > adds other changes to viewfinder internals to accomodate new lines, resulting in occasional whiteout or "flare" of the rangefinder. > First M with a "red dot" logo on the front consistently - I believe a tiny number of M4-2s may have the "dot" also. > The ones that coincide with the M6 (post 1986) often have M6-style top plates, with flush glass in the viewfinder windows. Earlier ones have the M4/ M4-2 recessed window glass. If you want to use a 75 lens easily, or a 28 without accesory finder, the M4-P is the way to go. If you love the silky smoothness of silver-chrome and the 60's style "German" manufacturing/engraving, the original M4 is the one to pick. If you're on a budget, don't use a 28 or 75, and don't care about cosmetics, the M4-2 can be a nice functional bargain. I've had all three at some point, and to me they were all just nice cameras. The M4-2 was the first I bought and the last I sold in going digital. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackDE Posted March 31, 2011 Author Share #3 Posted March 31, 2011 Here's one attempt: M4 - built 1968-1975, mostly in Germany at the original Wetzlar factory. A camera designed to combine features of the M3 and M2 into one model to simplify the line. First M with a rewind crank instead of a knob. First M (except for some special M2-Rs) with the quickload prongs instead of a takeup spool. All M4s have a self-timer, 4 framelines for 35-50-90-135 lenses, old-style Leica script engraving on top plate. Most are chrome, some are black paint, a very small number are black chrome - also a very small number built at the Canadian factory. The M4s of any kind were discontinued during 1975-1977. Leica briefly killed the whole rangefinder line as "old-fashioned" after the M5/CL. Total production about 60,000 _________________________________________________ In 1978, Leitz Canada revived the M4 design, modified to be cheaper to build, as the M4-2. Built through 1980. Actually the rarest "M4" with total production of 16,000. Canada "needed" the M line because their jobs depended on making M lenses. Despite the "rarity" (and they aren't hard to find) - usually inexpensive because they have a "rep" as a cheaper camera not up to the original M4 quality (and not "Built in Germany"), and without the metering of the M6, and without the extra frames of the M4-P (see below) The primary differences between the M4-2 and the original M4 are: > no self-timer (thus a tad lighter) > much simplified top engraving - just a fatter and larger "Leitz" script. Serial number moves to the hot shoe. (oh, and the shoe becomes "hot" for the first time) > ornate chrome-metal film speed reminder dial on back replaced by gray plastic disk for writing the ISO on with pencil > miscellaneous other small cost-cutting changes - e.g. plastic parts in the frame counter ratchet > steel gearing in part of the wind mechanism, instead of brass, to take the wear and tear of an accessory motor - supposedly makes camera not as smooth as original M4 for manual winding. > a hole added to the inner bottom plate for motor linkage > an accessory motor (if that wasn't obvious by now ) > Almost all in black chrome, with 1,000 in gold for Oscar Barnack's 100 birthday (1979). ______________ M4-P 1981-1987 Still built in Canada except for the last few built back in Germany, overlapping the first M6s. About 80% black chrome, 20% silver chrome. 22,000 total Differences from the M4-2 (otherwise, identical): > adds framelines for 28 and 75 lenses > adds other changes to viewfinder internals to accomodate new lines, resulting in occasional whiteout or "flare" of the rangefinder. > First M with a "red dot" logo on the front consistently - I believe a tiny number of M4-2s may have the "dot" also. > The ones that coincide with the M6 (post 1986) often have M6-style top plates, with flush glass in the viewfinder windows. Earlier ones have the M4/ M4-2 recessed window glass. If you want to use a 75 lens easily, or a 28 without accesory finder, the M4-P is the way to go. If you love the silky smoothness of silver-chrome and the 60's style "German" manufacturing/engraving, the original M4 is the one to pick. If you're on a budget, don't use a 28 or 75, and don't care about cosmetics, the M4-2 can be a nice functional bargain. I've had all three at some point, and to me they were all just nice cameras. The M4-2 was the first I bought and the last I sold in going digital. Wow! Thank you for this comprehensive answer, Andy! Cheers, Bernhard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted March 31, 2011 Share #4 Posted March 31, 2011 Hi I've added some changes for potential purchasers... more info here, even if factual some is alarmist Leica FAQ — RF patch flare Here's one attempt: M4 - built 1968-1975, mostly in Germany at the original Wetzlar factory. A camera designed to combine features of the M3 and M2 into one model to simplify the line. First M with a rewind crank instead of a knob. First M (except for some special M2-Rs) with the quickload prongs instead of a takeup spool. though earlier M have a retrofit kit for similar purpose All M4s have a self-timer, 4 framelines for 35-50-90-135 lenses, old-style Leica script engraving on top plate. Most are chrome, some are black paint, a very small number are black chrome - also a very small number built at the Canadian factory. there is a $ premium for black chrome and larger one for black paint The M4s of any kind were discontinued during 1975-1977. Leica briefly killed the whole rangefinder line as "old-fashioned" after the M5/CL. Total production about 60,000 _________________________________________________ In 1978, Leitz Canada revived the M4 design, modified to be cheaper to build, as the M4-2. Built through 1980. Actually the rarest "M4" with total production of 16,000. Canada "needed" the M line because their jobs depended on making M lenses. Despite the "rarity" (and they aren't hard to find) - usually inexpensive because they have a "rep" as a cheaper camera not up to the original M4 quality (and not "Built in Germany"), and without the metering of the M6, and without the extra frames of the M4-P (see below) they were manufactured in an assembly lne rather than with a file fo fit, to save costs, as were all later Ms... They had some consequent teething problems. The primary differences between the M4-2 and the original M4 are: > no self-timer (thus a tad lighter) > much simplified top engraving - just a fatter and larger "Leitz" script. Serial number moves to the hot shoe. (oh, and the shoe becomes "hot" for the first time) > ornate chrome-metal film speed reminder dial on back replaced by gray plastic disk for writing the ISO on with pencil > miscellaneous other small cost-cutting changes - e.g. plastic parts in the frame counter ratchet > steel gearing in part of the wind mechanism, instead of brass, to take the wear and tear of an accessory motor - supposedly makes camera not as smooth as original M4 for manual winding. > a hole added to the inner bottom plate for motor linkage > or leicavit > an accessory motor (if that wasn't obvious by now ) > Almost all in black chrome, with 1,000 in gold for Oscar Barnack's 100 birthday (1979). ______________ M4-P 1981-1987 Still built in Canada except for the last few built in Solms, overlapping the first M6s. About 80% black chrome, 20% silver chrome. 22,000 total Differences from the M4-2 (otherwise, identical): > adds framelines for 28 and 75 lenses > adds other changes to viewfinder internals to accomodate new lines, resulting in occasional whiteout or "flare" of the rangefinder. note some late M4-2 seem to have the rfdr patch problem, which happens repeatabily, and was a cost saving. Mine does... problem not adressed until M7 & MP. > changes adjustement of rfdr to need a special >>$ tool for adjustment, some late M4-2 ditto > First M with a "red dot" logo on the front consistently - I believe a tiny number of M4-2s may have the "dot" also. > The ones that coincide with the M6 (post 1986) often have M6-style top plates, with flush glass in the viewfinder windows. Earlier ones have the M4/ M4-2 recessed window glass. these late made of zinc which can corrode alarmingly... easy to detect If you want to use a 75 lens easily, or a 28 without accesory finder, the M4-P is the way to go. If you love the silky smoothness of silver-chrome and the 60's style "German" manufacturing/engraving, the original M4 is the one to pick. If you're on a budget, don't use a 28 or 75, and don't care about cosmetics, the M4-2 can be a nice functional bargain. M2 is nicer and only has small premium, even with the add on take up quick load spool, and addon fast rewind. Just dont try one back to back with a M4-2. If you use a 28mm you can use the full field of the finder. The wind on lever is solid metal... etc., ... I've had all three at some point, and to me they were all just nice cameras. The M4-2 was the first I bought and the last I sold in going digital. The other thing which may annoy is specs, the Ms do not have a rubber ring in eyepiece until late, the frame lines have alse been changed in size, neither of these things annoy me but might some one else. A M4-2 will be ok with a 40mm and 35mm frame lines... Donno about M4-P. Inspect the rfdr patch contrast of the camera you are buying as that is an expensive change or refurb and some people dont like the repaired finders - I do... Cameras may have been updated during maintenance... Lots of people have more then one M cannot blame adan... I normally shoot with several M2, the M4-2 and later until M7/MPare like some girls - look better in poor light. Noel P.S. Same must be true for some fellas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 31, 2011 Share #5 Posted March 31, 2011 I agree with most of Noel's additional info. My only quibble is what an M2 has to do with a question about the differences between various M4s Leica does tend to tweak cameras throughout their production life, sometimes introducing new features that then become "standard" for the following model. So there are often exceptions to a general description of a design's characteristics. Describing each of the 16,000 M4-2s, for example, individually would make for a long thread, however. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted March 31, 2011 Share #6 Posted March 31, 2011 I agree with most of Noel's additional info. My only quibble is what an M2 has to do with a question about the differences between various M4s If I were starting I'd feel gutted if I had not sampled a M2 as well, as the M4-xx, as the price order is M4-2, M2, M4-P, M4. The slower loading many people prefer, the lever, even the knob rewind. Leica does tend to tweak cameras throughout their production life, sometimes introducing new features that then become "standard" for the following model. So there are often exceptions to a general description of a design's characteristics. Describing each of the 16,000 M4-2s, for example, individually would make for a long thread, however. That is true in addition the factory repair technique has been replace modules, and sometimes the modiule is a current rather than a contempory module. But if I was getting a M4-2 I'd try and get an early one before they started the 'enhancements', all the teething problems will be fixed, by now. e.g. I can live with the white out of the rfdr, lots of people cannot. Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted March 31, 2011 Share #7 Posted March 31, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Do all three have 0.72 view finders? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penzes Posted March 31, 2011 Share #8 Posted March 31, 2011 Do all three have 0.72 view finders? Pete. Yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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