Why X1 with Leica?

[phancj]

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Dear Phancj,

 

I'm not asking you to stop loving your X1. I can understand love between a man and an object especially if the object has a practical use and satisfies you in what it does.

You said it's your first leica and that's special, so it's normal that you are being over protective.

 

My post wasn't really about the shortcomings of X1 but the new direction Leica company seemed to be taking with the introduction of this specific camera. I also wanted to mention that some of the consumers were being too emotional when it comes to criticism. I think you have proved my point with your aggressive behavior.

 

Huh? I like the camera for its ability to take photos, I love my wife, my dog and close ones and friends.

 

You are either drunk (as some suggested) or sick.

 

I do not need to protect leica or its cameras, the fact is you are saying things that are largely untrue, It is you who have a sanity problem with your swinging of "I like leica" then "I hate M7 and X1" or "M8 sucks" whatever. I am not alone in not understanding your strange if not totally warped reasoning and posts soemtimes which is the primary reason for my response. If you find it offensive just too bad my friend. In any case henceforth you are on my ignore list so thats that good luck. Have fun yourself, I do not see the point in discussion with someone whose principal purpose in life appears to be be one of sulking and fretting over what leica should or should not do, or what customers of leica should/should not like. it's a free world so you being the know-it-all go set up a camera company and make cameras better than the M8/M7/X1 and I'll buy one or more from you. Until then you are just a buzzing housefly around IMO, with no useful info let alone entertainment value. Excuse me I gotta go shoot some photos with my useless leica and post on the photo forum or LFI which thankfully are practically devoid of pp like your goodself.

[patrick parker]

Most 'professional' cameras are used by amateurs. None of this thread is making sense. Maybe it will in the morning.

 

Night

 

What is wrong with what I said ? Do you really think there is a bigger number of professionals purchasing professional cameras than amateurs do ? That would be end of all professional cameras.

 

Take Leica S2 for example, it is "the professional" camera of the whole range. You may think the target is fashion/commercial photographers. That's only the tip of the iceberg. There is a quite, unmentioned target out there. This big variety of customers are made up of the wealthy who either want the "best" or want to buy the "best" as a gift.

 

Don't get me wrong, Leica is not only company out there who benefits from this type of marketing and there is nothing immoral about it.

 

Let me try to explain my point about the X1 again. Take S2 for example, I have no doubt it is exactly what some commercial photographers out there wanted. I'm sure they find very useful, practical, great. Now take M9, It is what I wanted and it's great. These two cameras are what they are, no strings attached. S2 is a high resolution SLR and M9 is well...an M9. When you look at an X1 you know exactly what it's meant to be used for, it is designed to be fast, fast, fast. A camera that Gary Winogrand would carry on him. A pocketable autofocus M camera. Is it?

 

Leica's designs spring out of functionality. Function would come first and aesthetics would come second. What we call retro these days wasn't a choice of taste but function.

I'm Afraid X1 is turning this around. I would much rather have the old wine in a new bottle than have the new wine in an old one.

 

If anyone answers saying it produces great images I will assume they didn't read this. I agree it produces better images than it's competitors, I've mentioned that many times already.

[andybarton]

Can we keep personal attacks out of the Forum, please?

Thanks

[prk60091]

kerplunk- p p is now on my "ignore list"

[patrick parker]

I read the original post and the more recent explanation and I still don't quite understand the point. It is so fuzzy it is hard to follow. Frankly, I don't think it is me.

 

How's this for an alternative: "I like Leicas in general because of high image quality but do not like every feature of every Leica and nobody can or should say that Leica is above criticism. The X1 is my least favorite even though it produces high quality images because it is too cute and because it has features that to me make it un-Leica like, like autofocus and flash and a viewscreen for composing". Is that what he was trying to say?

 

Alan,

 

Forgive me for not being clear enough. Yes I don't think Leica should be held above criticism. This is a very useful forum not only for us but for Leica Camera company also. Like many other companies Leica have received feedback from professional photographers for years, they still do of course but times are changing. Forums like L-Camera do make a difference. Amateurs' opinions matter because we are the major buyers.

 

I refuse to buy into the sales hype like tradition and heredity. It doesn't really matter if I like or dislike the X1 as a camera. It is the idea behind it that I find disturbing. Any camera with an M lens on it would have made a sharp photograph with great tonality. That wouldn't have made that camera an M3 or an M6. An M3, M6 or M9 have other special qualities that make them more than a box that holds a Kodak sensor or a Kodak film. What you have between that lens and the sensor, is it built like a Leica? Or does it only look like a one?

[Douglasco]

After reading the original post I think I need a whisky

[mhoutman]

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humbug... I need a drink too

[Guest badbob]

The OP's original argument doesn't make sense. Some of the features of the X1 that could have easily been better merit criticism. But Leica's introduction of the best digital imager of its size anywhere is beyond criticism, unless it were to pose a health threat or some other bad thing.

[phancj]

Agreed completely.

 

I hope leica continues in this X series with even better miniaturization, like a FF inside the X1 chassis size. Or the X2 can be APS-C too but even smaller, that'll be something.

 

Despite all the naysayers and detractors truth of the matter is if one desires the best images in the most compact camera there is STILL nothing in this genre, one and half years later.

 

Hats off to leica, hope they continue to expand the X series.

 

I had originally anticipated that canon/nikon will jump into the foray but that hasnt materialized yet. They probably ran away seeing the incessant rants on AF speed and knowing fully well the speed limitations of contrast detection AF systems.

[Guest badbob]

I was pondering the Nikon/Canon thing too. Thinking not so much about performance, since it's a niche product, but more about the market and price point, and number of units they could sell. There are probably a lot of people who would love an X1-type camera for less than $1000 with a Nikon or Canon label, but that's still a lot of bread for a Nikon/Canon compact camera, unless it were demonstrably better than the X1 in key features. Image quality is the big one. Just equalling Leica for $1000 without the Leica badge may not be good enough to sell the required number of units.

[phancj]

Badbob,

 

With the ever lower prices of DSLR which are much more flexible I would have to say that it is the fixed lens of the X1 type of camera which deters from it going mainstream. I do not think the red dot commands that much really, I mean if the X1 cannot churn out the gorgeous images it does I wouldnt go near it.

 

If canon/nikon makes an equally competent camera and equally small as the X1 I'll buy the Nikon/canon for sure. Not paying $1000 for a dot ($50 maybe I wont mind). Problem is Canon/nikon knows the fixed lens has got so niche a market it's not worth their effort and time, not when they can roll out P&Ss and DSLRs and make so much more money. Dont forget, you do not need to even provide a lens for the DSLR price. In the X1 we have a great lens, a big sensor and nice materials. The X1 isnt that expensive really, neither the M9. The M9 is comparable in price to the Nikon D3X for instance. And my D300 (presumably same sensor as X1) costs me the same as my X1 (I got the D300 3 years ago) sans lens so I cannot say that my nikon is better value. Add 2 copies of LR and the X1 looks more attractive.

 

I really feel it is the fixed lens that equates to less sales, hence the major manufacturers' aversion towards such a product. And yes, after all that incessant rants about the lack of speed in contrast detection AF that pretty much sums up why no one else wants to build such a camera.

[Guest badbob]

phancj: Right on. Fixed lens is biggest limitation. And I would pay maybe $700 for a Canon or Nikon equivalent to the X1, but not more. I would attribute my $700 limit about 25 percent for the badge, and about 75 percent not trusting Canon or Nikon to maintain the same optical quality in every production unit. If the $1000 X1 by Canon or Nikon were available at the local Best Buy and I could exchange it a couple of times or return it outright, that might be acceptable. But I'm sure Best Buy would not carry it, so that as they say is that. Niche cameras are a very tricky business.

[jsrockit]

Just equalling Leica for $1000 without the Leica badge may not be good enough to sell the required number of units.

 

Which is why Sony went the $500-600 route.

[Guest badbob]

Which is why Sony went the $500-600 route.

 

From what I hear, Sony's competition are the Panasonic GF2, possibly a Samsung EVIL camera, certainly not the X1. All of those have interchangeable lenses.

[h00ligan]

Which is why Sony went the $500-600 route.

 

Too bad they didn't tap zeiss for some lenses. I'd own a nex already if they had remotely fast good lenses..the 16 is a pig from everything I've seen...the zoom looks ok for a walk around..on par with other Dslr kit zooms, not great, not awful.

[jsrockit]

From what I hear, Sony's competition are the Panasonic GF2, possibly a Samsung EVIL camera, certainly not the X1. All of those have interchangeable lenses.

 

Well, sure... Leica doesn't really compete with anyone IMO. However, many people compare the NEX w/ adapter and M glass to the X1.

[Guest badbob]

....many people compare the NEX w/ adapter and M glass to the X1.

 

I can't imagine why anyone would do that. If I were an ordinary camera afictionado, tuned into Nikon, Pana, Sony et al, I wouldn't give a Leica X1 at $2000 even a second look. It must be only those who are coming from a Leica perspective who would make such a comparison. And from that perspective, everything looks interesting, but ultimately frustrating as well. I've said to people many times, and read in reviews - if you're inclined to agonize over the X1's features and performance as compared to interchangeable lens cameras, stop right now and 'x' out the X1.

[markgay]

It won’t come as surprise but I don’t like Leica X1. I especially do not like the people who defend it 100%.

 

There are many Leica made cameras I disagreed with in the past like the R8,M6 TTL, M7,R9, MP and the M8. R8 was bulky so was the R9.

 

Good post. I was laughing by this point, not at you but with you. Why SHOULD one love all the cameras produced by the blessed L? Why not be picky?

 

However, despite yourself (I think) you're calling for more dissention, not less.

 

I believe you have diverse reasons for disliking these cameras, even though I can get the M8 and M7 to do what I want better than almost any other camera.

 

Even more so in the case of the X1 because its size makes it worth persisting. There's no other camera I'd carry with me everywhere.

 

Harmony with a camera is harmony with the results. If the object rubs me up the wrong way I'll persist so long as I capture the subject.

[patrick parker]

Good post. I was laughing by this point, not at you but with you. Why SHOULD one love all the cameras produced by the blessed L? Why not be picky?

 

However, despite yourself (I think) you're calling for more dissention, not less.

 

I believe you have diverse reasons for disliking these cameras, even though I can get the M8 and M7 to do what I want better than almost any other camera.

 

Even more so in the case of the X1 because its size makes it worth persisting. There's no other camera I'd carry with me everywhere.

 

Harmony with a camera is harmony with the results. If the object rubs me up the wrong way I'll persist so long as I capture the subject.

 

Hello Mark,

 

Thank you for your response. My opinions of the certain models of leica are of course personal. M6 has always been my favorite camera. I judge every camera Leica ever made with the M6. I was once led to believe that there was a philosophy behind this company's approach. They have been targeting photographers who travel light and take note in a fast and candid fashion with available light. It wasn't the right camera for certain other photographers who did not work this way, so some of them chose leicas and some chose other equipment. Even with R series up to the R7 leica tried to pushed this philosophy as much as they could, as much as a reflex system allowed it (S2 also belongs to this tradition. I don't understand why it's named an S2, price?). These characteristics were a standard. Hasselblad had different standards. They made cameras for a different style of photography.

 

When I opened this thread I wanted to point out that this certain model the "X" gives us certain features and a hope that this maybe the future of this philosophy. X is a hint. It's the kind of camera you pick up and say " so. That's where they are going" A lot of forum members choose to say " so. this is where we are"

 

Why be happy with it. If you think it's not complete. If I didn't know what was out there in the past and what is out there now, I would be happy with an x1 or for that matter even a pinhole camera.

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Hallo,

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[diogenis]

By the way, and a bit off subject, I vote for Patrick all the way, even though I disagree at some of the points he makes about Leica. But I like how he (and some others) expresses his opinion straight and without hesitation.

So, go for it! Patrick