earleygallery Posted February 25, 2011 Share #21  Posted February 25, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just to play devil's advocate on the film thing, you have to remember that film is about $6 a roll. Then developing is about $6 a roll. Let's say a roll is 36 shots. I'll shoot 300 photos in a weekend. 300/36 >\= 8 rolls. 8 * $12 = $96  Now if you buy in bulk, it's somewhat more affordable, but even just spending $50 a week on film and processing for a year easily covers the cost of an M8 -- if it keeps working for a year.  But then again, it's an adjustable/variable cost depending on how much you shoot.  Maybe you're shooting too many frames? Unless I'm shooting something in particular, which requires plenty of shots and an element of safety, I'll try to make every frame count. I might bracket the odd shot if the lighting is tricky but - if I may also play devil's advocate - IMO using film makes one much less wasteful, less trigger happy, and perhaps more careful.  I'll typically shoot a couple of rolls on a general mooch about with nothing particular in mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 Hi earleygallery, Take a look here X1 v M8. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Allnm Posted February 25, 2011 Share #22  Posted February 25, 2011 I wish the warranty was available here! Unfortunately it's up to the buyer should anything go wrong with the m8. I recently passed on an m8 for a few reasons. Price wasn't the main one - which was the pervasive issues with the model. By the time I spent for an m8.2 (issues resolved?) it didn't make sense not to get an m9.  And we always think you have it better over there in the States! Theres a black M8 for sale at a dealers over here at the moment for £1700 ( about $2500). Comes with a 12 month warranty. Other shops do a 6 month warranty. It takes the worry out of buying a used M8. I seem to be talking myself into a used M8 here.......  Allan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar B Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share #23  Posted February 26, 2011 I think the cost of film & processing is a consideration especially if your "shutter happy" i was quoted £12 recently for having slides processed , so it seems that both mediums are neccessary , if your a film fan and i guess most will then employ both.  Great to hear from you to Doug on this forum .... i think you have got it exactly right with your MP n X1 .... who needs an M9 with that line up .... i think ive already gone as far i as i can go with Kens gear but we can always dream of SF100s  Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted February 26, 2011 Share #24  Posted February 26, 2011 Maybe you're shooting too many frames? Unless I'm shooting something in particular, which requires plenty of shots and an element of safety, I'll try to make every frame count. I might bracket the odd shot if the lighting is tricky but - if I may also play devil's advocate - IMO using film makes one much less wasteful, less trigger happy, and perhaps more careful. I'll typically shoot a couple of rolls on a general mooch about with nothing particular in mind.  This is the main drawback of film isnt it? Unless one is experienced to a marked degree without instant review there is really no assurance that the "decisive moment" has been actually captured well.  Dont get me wrong, I LOVE the look of film compared to digital, but the cost/inconvenience/lack of instant review is seriously uphill in the world of digital convenience.  There is absolutely no way using film can ever be cheap compared to digital, and please do not ask us to save film, the whole point of camera is to take many pictures, as many as we care to have. When I was using film cameras just experimenting and toying around with parameters was EXTREMELY costly affair. I recalled shooting some products on my Nikon and gosh $200 each set of photos. Way too much. I werent too good either maybe thats why, but I wanted to capture the products from many angles and different sets of lighting so....  CJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar B Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share #25 Â Posted March 4, 2011 I was in "fforbes of Inverness" yesterday (excellent retailer) ... and had an X1 , M8 and one of the "James M2s" on the counter ... and messed about with them for about 15 mins , now i have to say that i loved all 3 cameras but the M2 felt like the best of the three for reasons that i cannot really explain or convey , it was at a subconscious ,instinctive level,having said that i did not buy the M2 and iam still in contemplation mode. Â Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelb Posted March 4, 2011 Share #26  Posted March 4, 2011 This is the main drawback of film isnt it? Unless one is experienced to a marked degree without instant review there is really no assurance that the "decisive moment" has been actually captured well. Dont get me wrong, I LOVE the look of film compared to digital, but the cost/inconvenience/lack of instant review is seriously uphill in the world of digital convenience.  That 'decisive moment' invariably happens just once so it's just as easy to lose it with digital. Often the film photogapher can fire off another shot quickly while the digital photographer is still 'chimping' the last one ie. freeing your mind from constantly checking settings and the last shot. It's about putting faith in your own skill and equipment.  Those who still use film know fullwell that it is a costly process these days but do it because they enjoy using the media as well as the look and feel of the results. I really can't understand someone who has spent many 1000's on cameras, software and printing facilities moaning about £6 for getting a film processed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted March 4, 2011 Share #27 Â Posted March 4, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) I can shoot without chimping on the X1 or my nikon as I know them well, so I disagree on the fact that you have to chimp but it is a great tool nevertheless to be able to review. So it is not necessarily true that film has any added advantage in capturing the "decisive moment". I would even go on to say that given the great high iso performance (not to mention instant change of iso) of digital cams these days you are in fact more likely to capture the decisive moment. Â It's not just the cost alone, but the inconvenience of film processing. Here there is now a dire of COMPETENT labs, just a very small handful of labs that are willing to take care processing the films. Â I am sure film will stay for awhile, but from the reduction in number of "on-the-spot" film processing labs it sure looks like it's on the exit. Question is only how long. Â Like I said, I like the look of film, but not sure it is fun going to labs anymore. Prefer everything "in-house". Â And it is not just $6, here it is a lot more for processing and printing, And if you shoot a couple rolls it adds up to a hefty sum. If I were to develop all the shots in my X1 or Nikon I would have paid a fortune. Â Â CJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted March 4, 2011 Share #28  Posted March 4, 2011 It's amazing anyone got any decent shots before they invented digital  INHO, it's just a matter of experience and practice, both of which merely take a little time and application. Most film users just "know" when they have a good shot. If it was there in the viewfinder half an inch in front of your face, and you clicked the shutter, it's done. At the end of the day, you either know how to take a good photograph or you don't. Most of the work is in your head.  When I shoot digital I might take more shots, but I don't get any more keepers out of a morning than I do with my film cameras.  This is just my experience and my comment. Your experience might be different from mine and YMMV etc etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelb Posted March 4, 2011 Share #29  Posted March 4, 2011 I was in "fforbes of Inverness" yesterday (excellent retailer) ... and had an X1 , M8 and one of the "James M2s" on the counter ... and messed about with them for about 15 mins , now i have to say that i loved all 3 cameras but the M2 felt like the best of the three for reasons that i cannot really explain or convey , it was at a subconscious ,instinctive level,having said that i did not buy the M2 and iam still in contemplation mode. Brian  There's no way I would ever personally visit Ffordes as I fear that my credit cards would take a massive hammering The are my favourite vendors of second hand equipment so I am glad they are 500 miles away.  How could you walk away from that M2? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted March 4, 2011 Share #30  Posted March 4, 2011 It's amazing anyone got any decent shots before they invented digital  INHO, it's just a matter of experience and practice, both of which merely take a little time and application. Most film users just "know" when they have a good shot. If it was there in the viewfinder half an inch in front of your face, and you clicked the shutter, it's done. At the end of the day, you either know how to take a good photograph or you don't. Most of the work is in your head.  When I shoot digital I might take more shots, but I don't get any more keepers out of a morning than I do with my film cameras.  This is just my experience and my comment. Your experience might be different from mine and YMMV etc etc.  The instant change of iso and the high iso performance of digital is one good reason as it is.  Though I dont know how we digressed from the original theme of thread.  CJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelb Posted March 4, 2011 Share #31 Â Posted March 4, 2011 ... So it is not necessarily true that film has any added advantage in capturing the "decisive moment".... Â My point was that digital has no advantage in capturing the decisive moment as you stated. I guess we have different views as to what constitutes a decisive moment. Â I agree we are off topic, so no further comment from me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar B Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share #32  Posted March 4, 2011 There's no way I would ever personally visit Ffordes as I fear that my credit cards would take a massive hammering The are my favourite vendors of second hand equipment so I am glad they are 500 miles away. How could you walk away from that M2?  I know ... iam not up to speed with suitable M lenses from that era and buying an M2 would mean that i would really be embracing film again , something i was not prepared for ... PS i note the M2 is not on their site , it was in excellent condition and £599.  Bian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markgay Posted March 9, 2011 Share #33  Posted March 9, 2011 Reminds me of the day I handed my M7 to my much younger brother (two decades younger, and a wiz with the Nikon D700) and asked him to take a picture of me with my dad.  He took the first shot, then asked why the shutter would not fire a second time. We had to tell him to try the wind-on lever.  Once he’d discovered how to wind on, he fired away like a machine gun. We had to warn him to slow down, that he wouldn’t get more than 36 snapshots.  It‘s not about the decisive moment. It’s just something people do because they can.  BTW I have the M8 and X1. Both make great images. You just have to understand the trade-offs, as with any camera – and, let’s be honest, you have to not give a damn about fashion or other people’s opinions )).  I predict the M8 is going to be much sought-after because of its ultra-thin IR shield making it a great B+W camera.  The X1 is the smallest camera to offer that class of sensor/image. And it will continue to be, after the much bigger X100 finally goes into production. However, it’s the best, now, and should be used, now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted March 9, 2011 Share #34  Posted March 9, 2011 It's amazing anyone got any decent shots before they invented digital  Indeed. Amazingly some photographers can also get by without autofocus, auto exposure, auto bracketing, 5fps, face/smile recognition, scene modes, 6400 ISO, etc.  Look at the work of famous photographers of the past, are their photos lacking for the want of latest technology? Would they have been better for it I wonder?  Some of those features are very useful in certain circumstances, but they aren't absolutely necessary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeTexas Posted March 9, 2011 Share #35 Â Posted March 9, 2011 One camera even now has an "instant airbrush" feature. No more ugly, wrinkled people in your photos! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
prk60091 Posted March 9, 2011 Share #36 Â Posted March 9, 2011 i have never shot w/an M8 but I have shot w/ older M's (M3) and older screwmounts and now I own an x1 so take this comment for what it is worth. Â in the 8 months or so that i have shot the x1 i have learned this instrument and the more i use it the more i understand it. Â i no longer "chimp" and now I understand much better an earlier discussion in this forum where i was taken to task for not understanding the "decisive moment". Â It is not only possible but pleasureable to shoot the "moment" with my x1 and the results are spectacular. And this is why I choose leica. The produce a tool that makes taking photos fun and produces spectacular images. Â this tool takes TIME to master. It is deceiving- it is a point and shoot (isn't it?) but you have to learn to tame this camera. It will take good photos out of the box. After using it and understanding it- it will produce images beyond its price tag. Â I assume that the learning and using curve w/the m8/8.2/9 would be similar. Â I have seen "moments" shot w/ m8/8.2&9 and I have taken "moments" w/my x1- so the answer to your question x1 v m8- is really can you live w/just 1 prime lens? Â I can. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted March 9, 2011 Share #37  Posted March 9, 2011 Hi Folks Just a brief intro , my name is Brian i live in Scotland and my main hobby is Astronomy (Solar to be exact) however i do have a passion for Leica cameras , up until now i have been messing about with C & D Luxs plus all 3 of the Digiluxs , my fondest memories are of the Dig1 believe it or not , i currently use a V-Lux 1 which is ok. Now i think at this point i should ad that i simply "Adore" the Rangefinder Ms by Leica i cannot conjure up a more beautiful object (inanimate) than say a silver M8 with a chrome lens.... best pics of these ive seen are on Luigis site. So my choices are X1 (get a lot of good n bad press here) or an M8 .... now as things stand i could only afford an M8 body at present , so the X1 is in pole at the mo even though i would have to get an optical finder as i can only use finders of sorts. Your going to ask me what i will use the camera for and i will say photographs , snapshots to be precise and any form of image processing is not on the cards. So its really something to behold and cherish rather than a tool to an end, sorry if this sounds sacrilegious but its the truth. A photographer friend suggests i get an older film "M" but i guess i have been using digital too long now to revert , did all that in the 80s with AE1s to Prog then an A1. So there you have it , your views would be much appreciated and to finish the X100 is not an option , it does not possess a red dot.  Brian  the M8 pictures are stunning. if you want to change lens and don't mind MF or the extra bulk then there is no choice! Although personally I would get the M8 with only one lens over the X1 any day! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar B Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share #38 Â Posted March 13, 2011 Well my latest is that ive bought a D-lux 4 / grip n finder second-hand package. I really bought this to try the 24mm finder ... im not sure how useful it is as naturally you do use the zoom on the camera ... not being a fixed FL ... and i can understand why the lux-5 has a "digital" finder option , but i found the finder to be of exceptional quality and i wish that all were as bright as this , plus the wee D-lux is quite a capable wee camera. Â Brian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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