sean reid and street photography

[Guest stnami]

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No I am not being harsh Steve mainly because I am never harsh!! sure they will be used but fondled they will.

No offense meant Mr Norton: but I can see Mark placing his digital M8 carefully on the passangers seat with a fluffy restraining device, taking loving glances as he drives and a quick fondle at the lights tavelling from Solms grinning like a cheshire cat. Getting home and....

Paul run it to me backwards that me Imants, yep it will be a regular wombats' picnic

[smokysun]

hi paul,

your point well taken, and it's seems worth the effort to open up the discussion to: what does digital make possible? perhaps everything could be done with film, but now everybody can have a camera with them (and they do) in all kinds of situations.

 

in a sense 'street photography' has taken over the world. take a look at the 'fotolog book: a global snapshot for the digital age' a thousand pics with comments by viewers from fotolog.net. the pics perhaps too small to judge their quality but everybody's getting in on the act.

 

imants opened a discussion here i considered making a new thread 'personal photography'. boy, an incredible number of people are letting their lives hang out on the web. but what is missing is deep feeling.

 

i shied away from both nan goldin and araki at first. they seemed exhibitionist. but pain and death are very true to their worlds as well as love (and with araki lots of humor). nan goldin falls into a swimming pool in india and goes thru three very hard operations to right her camera hand. lots of morphine ironically gets her back on smack and she has to go thru rehab (and you see all the pictures). araki first became a 'real' photographer on his honeymoon, taking photos of his wife. later she dies and you feel how haunted he is amongst the way too many sex scenes.

 

this kind of personal photography can become liberating for the viewer. personally, i don't have the bravado or chutzpah to do it.

 

the compact digital is probably the real revolution. yet i find i breath fresh air when i go looking for a new piece of equipment. most of life is humanly complex. it's relaxing to focus on a new line of cameras or a computer. but in the end it's what you do with them that matters. and that means being involved in the confusing human world.

 

thanks for the input.

 

wayne

[Guest stnami]

I revisited a exhibition in Sydney with extraordinary street stuff here is a blurb about it

 

City of shadows:

inner city crime & mayhem 1912-1948

The extensive collection of police forensic negatives(4 ton) held at the Justice & Police Museum casts a fascinating light on the shadowy underworld of Sydney between the wars. In the mugshots we encounter people of that world – thieves, breakers, receivers, ‘magsmen’, ‘spielers’, ‘urgers’, ‘gingerers’, false pretenders, ‘hotel barbers’, shoplifters, dope users, prostitutes, makers of false oaths – and the occasional murderer. And within this medium of crime and accident scene photographs we are able to view, sometimes in extraordinary detail, their physical milieu – the mean kitchens, bedrooms and parlours, the pubs, boarding houses, corner shops and residentials, the sheds, garages, back lanes, streets and byways of a Sydney that is both eerily strange but all too familiar.

 

The mug shots were facinating people with props,smiling, some out there expressions, nothing like the mug shots of melons as they do today. These guys were into serious photography. I did some crime photo stuff for the gallopers years ago, mine was just straight, impersonal forensic recording of crimes etc(lousy job kills your sensativity cells, soul destroying) but nothing like their free form images, I really get a buzz from the book that came out with the exhibition but that is personal because I live here

[smokysun]

hi imants,

do you have a website for the show or museum? it sounds really fascinating. i've seen a few australian movies that touch on its shadow side but nothing like this. a friend directed a play a few years ago about a ship transporting women convicts to down under. (and i have walked around the town for a week, so i have some memories.)

 

and mentioning women, it occured to me few if any women participate in this forum. maybe that's part of your frustration where the discussion always turns back to equipment. on previous canon forums women were major players, in all ways, but mostly in terms of the photographs themselves: how to make them, lighting, color, etc. a friend whose wife is a first grade teacher said such things really matter to the women teachers and their classrooms incredibly colorful while the men's drab. somewhere i read women have twice as many color sensors in their eyes. this would make a difference. and this doesn't mean great women photographers haven't used leicas, but that they are more focused on results.

 

here are some using color i like very much: marie cosindas, olivia parker, nan goldin, elizabeth von unswerth, shiela metzner, sarah moon, joyce tennyson.

 

just a thought. how did women fare in that underworld existence you just witnessed?

thanks,

 

wayne

ps. it's really useful to shake ourselves loose from a conventional view of things. otherwise we're simply repeating the cliches of the past.

[smokysun]

hi imants,

 

just a note to tell you i did a search and found the sydney police museum. ordered the book from a bookstore in victoria. thanks for the tip.

 

wayne

 

http://www.hht.net.au/museums/jp/exhibitionswhats_on

[Guest stnami]

Wayne it think that it may be worthwhile starting a new thread 'personal photography', it will open it up a bit

[Guest Metroman]

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For those in or near to London the Tate Modern run a street photography workshop from time to time. I've tried it and found it very worthwhile. You are also tasked with producing a series of your own photographs between sessions and they are put on display for a group viewing/critique. So I can honestly say my photography has been exhibited at the Tate!

 

Check out their website for details.

 

Not the workshop but a discusssion in the same vein: The Lure of the Street

[KevinA]

'the significant moment'

You get those out on the streets, the first smack in the face, being spat at, the short burst in the clink for sticking your camera where it shouldn't be, stolen camera etc that's what I would consider as being significant moments. These type events and being there sometimes are more important than the images made

 

 

almost a 'decisive moment' for me, her decision was well and truely made. no telephoto here just a 28

Top rate pictures Imants, you know your business.

 

Kevin.

[smokysun]

hi bill,

 

thanks for recommending 'shots from the hip: another way of looking through the camera' by alias johnny stiletto, bloomsbury books, 1992. (i gobbled up one from amazon and someone else on the forum got the other.)

 

the guy tells the stories behind his shots, makes a few technical recommendations, and has a very dry, curmungeonly tone of voice. lots of fun. surely one of a kind. the archetypal street photographer.

 

it's made for the digital age. i'm surprised it hasn't been reprinted.

 

thanks again,

wayne

[Guest stnami]

Shots from the Hip,saw one available for 100 bucks plus. is it really that good Wayne'

 

$@$%^#%$$%?

[smokysun]

hi imants,

 

i wouldn't spend a 100 (got it for less than ten), but...this is a guy i think you'd really enjoy, for his character perhaps more than for the photos. any chance you could find a library copy?

 

he's intrepid. and it's fun the way he talks about taking the pictures and his attitude and techniques.

 

but no, it's not the kind of good i could recommend for a high price. it's too basic as a photography book.

 

wayne

 

ps. a book i definitely do recommend is 'mexican churches' by eliot porter and ellen auerbach. i like eliot porter as a technician but his nature shots always left me wanting. when i saw that he'd done this project in the fifties i took a chance (cheap, chronicle books). really interesting folk-like objects and churches in perhaps one of the best color photo books i've found.

[smokysun]

hi sean,

 

since this thread dedicated to you and street photography, i thought it might be the place to continue the discussion of subject and it's importance

 

and i had a sudden inspiration. i couldn't find the site with your personal projects, but weren't they these three:

 

1. motorcycle riders

2. subway occupants

3. irish travelers (tinkers, gypsies) ?

 

and it occured to me your mentors helen levitt and stephen shore took people on the street and road pictures respectively.

 

thus, you seem to me to have a very specific subject: wanderers, people who like to be out for the fun of it.

 

this pleased me because four of my favorite books are 'zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance' by robert pirsig, 'sailing alone around the world' by joshua slocumb, 'gypsies' by jan yoors, and one of my all-time favorites, 'raggle-taggle: adventures with a fiddle in hungary and roumania' by walter starkie.

 

so, it seems like your own work would focus on catching the essence of the wanderer. the many moods. the pleasures. the feelings. (i've two harley friends one of whom's son is a mechanic for the company. so i have some awareness.)

 

i've never posted anything i've written, but i thought you might like to browse my own relation to travel. for me it's like a fairytale adventure. you go out to get the powers and experience necessary to remedy a situation at home, which you do, and then lead an ordinary life. here are the three posts - poetry, story, and aphorisms:

 

Fairytales Photo Gallery by wayne pease at pbase.com

1976 - Murphy's Rebellion Photo Gallery by wayne pease at pbase.com

Zen and the Art of Travel Photo Gallery by wayne pease at pbase.com

 

so we choose the subject matter which brings out in ourselves what is most significant. after that the technical aspects help delineate the discoveries of the quest.

 

what do you think?

 

thanks, wayne

[sean_reid]

Hi Wayne,

 

Very interesting post and thoughts. I'm headed out to lead a tour tomorrow but will try to reread and reply to this some evening this week (while travelling) as time allows. At the moment, time doesn't even allow a good night's sleep. <G>

 

Best,

 

S

[Guest Metroman]

For those in or near to London the Tate Modern run a street photography workshop from time to time. I've tried it and found it very worthwhile. You are also tasked with producing a series of your own photographs between sessions and they are put on display for a group viewing/critique. So I can honestly say my photography has been exhibited at the Tate!

 

Check out their website for details.

 

James not sure if you are aware of these guys - obviously they tie in with the Tate Modern series - Photofusion.

 

Might be useful for those who can access London (Brixton).

[earleygallery]

James not sure if you are aware of these guys - obviously they tie in with the Tate Modern series - Photofusion.

 

Might be useful for those who can access London (Brixton).

 

Yes - they have an exhibition of Street Photography on at the moment - I'm hoping to get along there soon.

[smokysun]

for those of you interested in the subject, i'd like to recommend a fun book, grabbed on the fly off the sales table at barnes & noble:

 

'Le Tour: a century of the tour de france" by jeremy whittle.

published by MBI

 

lots of great streets in an historical setting, plenty of odd events, etc. it's just packed with black and white photos (and a few in color).

 

wayne

[smokysun]

sean's probably still on the road and it will be awhile before he gets back to us. (i'm really looking forward to his review of the sony r1.)

 

but i'd like to add a belated ps.

 

just read a book imants recommended some time ago, cover to cover (rather than browsing like the first time). lo and beyond, john berger in 'another way of telling' reveals what makes a great street/snapshot type photograph. he discusses four pics by kertesz, the father of street photography, all early ones from hungary.

 

i won't give the answer away, but he begins by saying, "The professional photographer tries, when taking a photograph, to choose an instant which will persuade the public viewer to lend it an 'appropriate' past and further. The photographer's intelligence of his empathy with the subject defines for him what is appropriate. Yet unlike the story-teller or painter or actor, the photographer only makes, in any one photograph, 'a single constitutive choice': the choice of the instant to be photographed. The photograph, compared with other means of communication, is therefore weak in intentionality."

 

after reading this book, i skimmed through 'The Tao of Photography' by Phillippe L. Gross and S.I. Shapiro. what's interesting is the contrast between the Gross photos and the full-page examples from the greats: gary winograd, etc. all the latter ones provoke my imagination. i could put anyone of them of the wall and consider its mystery for a long time. in the former, the author's photos, tho well-done. lack this mystery. (he gives too much information?)

 

and after reading the discussion at the end of the Getty book on manuel alvarez bravo, i went thru the fifty pictures to see how many had this mysterious quality and which i could put on the wall with the same results. maybe three out of the bunch, great photographer tho he is.

 

so, i hope the berger book reveals to you the mystery of the evocative photo, though then to go out and do it, that's something else.

 

wayne

[sean_reid]

sean's probably still on the road and it will be awhile before he gets back to us. (i'm really looking forward to his review of the sony r1.)

 

but i'd like to add a belated ps.

 

just read a book imants recommended some time ago, cover to cover (rather than browsing like the first time). lo and beyond, john berger in 'another way of telling' reveals what makes a great street/snapshot type photograph. he discusses four pics by kertesz, the father of street photography, all early ones from hungary.

 

i won't give the answer away, but he begins by saying, "The professional photographer tries, when taking a photograph, to choose an instant which will persuade the public viewer to lend it an 'appropriate' past and further. The photographer's intelligence of his empathy with the subject defines for him what is appropriate. Yet unlike the story-teller or painter or actor, the photographer only makes, in any one photograph, 'a single constitutive choice': the choice of the instant to be photographed. The photograph, compared with other means of communication, is therefore weak in intentionality."

 

after reading this book, i skimmed through 'The Tao of Photography' by Phillippe L. Gross and S.I. Shapiro. what's interesting is the contrast between the Gross photos and the full-page examples from the greats: gary winograd, etc. all the latter ones provoke my imagination. i could put anyone of them of the wall and consider its mystery for a long time. in the former, the author's photos, tho well-done. lack this mystery. (he gives too much information?)

 

and after reading the discussion at the end of the Getty book on manuel alvarez bravo, i went thru the fifty pictures to see how many had this mysterious quality and which i could put on the wall with the same results. maybe three out of the bunch, great photographer tho he is.

 

so, i hope the berger book reveals to you the mystery of the evocative photo, though then to go out and do it, that's something else.

 

wayne

 

Hi Wayne,

 

I'm back on the road again Friday until early September but will be working on several articles as soon as possible in September. Leica has new products coming out and so there are articles related to that <G>, there will also be a review of the R1, the "Street Photography" article and other things. I'll do my best to get things rolling as much as I can.

 

You won't be surprised to read that I think Berger's thesis above is B.S. No time now to elaborate, alas. <G> As antidotes to Berger, Sontag, et. al. <G> try Gombrich, Meyer Schapiro, James Agee (esp. in the intro. to Helen Levitt's "A Way of Seeing") and, of course, Ben Lifson. Also, John Coplans. Even Szarkowski's "The Photographers Eye" will illuminate the fallacy of Berger's claims but Szarkowski only brushed the surface in that book. Again, if you're interested,: "Feeling and Form" by Suzanne Langer. Of course, Langer's book is about art broadly, not just photography. But, of course, photography isn't really about photography either.

 

Also, the roots of what many think of as Street Photography go back to Daumier and then back much further. In photography, per se, there was Lartigue even before Kertesz. But really the photographers came into the game after it was already well established, they just used their drawing machines to carry things on.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[smokysun]

hi sean,

 

have fun as the summer moves toward fall. i'm really looking forward to your articles. part of me would love to have a new camera that catapults me into taking great pictures. alas, as we know, that has little to do with it.

 

seems to me we simply put an emphasis in different places. there's form and there's content. any artist who grabs us has a strong sense of the formal design. any work of great art depends upon this 'power of abstraction.' every piece is, in that sense, abstract.

 

but in terms of content, all the elements of form can be in place and the picture can leave us cold. i walk thru art dept halls and see student work on the walls all the time. they lack the assurance and power of those who've gone beyond their teachers, even as they practice all the rules (or break them). they haven't yet assumed their own authority.

 

and i think this is the problem with the formal analysis of art. it's only the beginning. the common elements are available to everyone who picks up a camera. most now have different grids for the rule of thirds or the golden triangle. there's some sense that goes beyond this to register a universal human element in the particular. this is what i think berger is trying to elucidate. for me it goes beyond the basic learnable rules.

 

the people you name pretty much describe the formal qualities of fine art. (read the suzanne langer when i was twenty and loved it, so i should look at it again.) the others are trying to get at what actually moves people and gives the best a mysterious quality.

 

i'm glad we're coming from opposite ends. your article will be all the more interesting for it.

 

thanks,

 

wayne

 

ps. i was thinking of the wall picture you took and described in terms of color. remember that one? we never really discussed what feeling it conveyed. to me: tension, alarm, fear in a crowd. you were taking one picture and i was seeing another?

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[sean_reid]

Hi Wayne,

 

I agree that form and content (to use Winogrand's terms) are both essential and that many pictures have much of one without enough of the other. Of course, it's not for nothing that Langer called her book, "Feeling and Form". But if you reread the writers I mentioned, you'll see that they're not at all limiting their discussions to form. Think about Shapiro's essay on Bergman for example. They look at content and form but, unlike Berger, Sontag or Barthes IMO, they know what they're talking about with respect to visual art generally and photography in specific. The Red Herring Trio mostly just confuse one thing with another.

 

BTW, I don't think there are such things are rules for composition or the depiction of form. Formulas, perhaps, but formulas aren't what lead to strong work. For example, there's no rule that lead to the strange and wonderful form of an arm on the right side of the frame in the famous Robert Frank picture of the flowing juke box.

 

Are you still out in the wilderness? That sounded good when you first described it, interesting gig.

 

Maybe we can talk more about the wall pictures later this fall when things slow down.

 

Best,

 

Sean