If the lenses of the X1 aren't produced in Germany, what's MADE in GERMANY?

[earleygallery]

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Good grief!

 

I'm truly amazed by the infantile ranting on this thread. It should be closed.

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[Ecaton]

so you seriously think it is not misleading?

 

As you protrait yourself as an expert in EU law, I'm confident you are knwoledgable about the rules on making false accusations as well;) Eventually, you are claiming that Leica misleads the market with the "Made in Germany" label on the X1.

Some of your believes got shaken up by the discussions in this thread, that's all. Take it as a learning. Nobody plaid foul.

[phancj]

We were having a conversation. No threats, physical or otherwise was ever implied or intended. Can't two people organise to meet to discuss?

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"The x100 launch is imminent. Good riddance."

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Seems some people get sensitive over their equipment. My posts were never intended to offend.

 

Anyway, EU law is highly complex. Lets leave it at that.

 

Peace.

 

Most including myself try to set the tone right, until....

 

Never intend to offend??!!

 

"EU law is highly complex" you assuming we are not up to it??!! I am pretty sure many if not all of us will comprehend if you set it out for us, I have a law degree and so do some here but I'm sure jurisdictional difference aside I do not believe I or anyone here will have a hard time understanding what you have to say...that is, if you have anything to say other than "it's complex"...

 

Most of us here ( at least I hope so) are capable of understanding laws, thats how we do not break them.

[Archiver]

What parts of a Rolex - if any - are made in Switzerland?

 

As far as I know, Rolex are one of the few watch companies that are classified as a 'manufacture', where everything is made and assembled inhouse. Even companies like Breitling and IWC often use outsourced movements, usually from ETA, albeit heavily modified inhouse. I think I heard, however, that Rolex have the sapphire crystals made elsewhere. But the last I heard, the cases, bracelets, dials and movements are made inhouse.

 

I don't particularly care whether the X1 or the M9 are assembled or made in Germany, as long as the manufacture and assembly is held to a very high standard. As we know, Zeiss lenses are manufactured in Japan, but to Zeiss' standards.

[larsv]

I love this thread. It is highly entertaining, made in Germany with components from all over the world.

 

My understanding from the EU legislation, which by the way is fairly/very recent, is that it leaves lots of room for interpretation. The way I understand it, is that the principle for the definition "made in...." is to look at the place from where the end product was assembled, thus changing the nature of the individual components from an end product into an unfinished product.

 

I don't think it says anything about where it was dreamed up/designed.

[phancj]

My understanding too as said earlier- point of final assembly.

 

CJ

[phancj]

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As far as I know, Rolex are one of the few watch companies that are classified as a 'manufacture', where everything is made and assembled inhouse. Even companies like Breitling and IWC often use outsourced movements, usually from ETA, albeit heavily modified inhouse. I think I heard, however, that Rolex have the sapphire crystals made elsewhere. But the last I heard, the cases, bracelets, dials and movements are made inhouse.

 

I don't particularly care whether the X1 or the M9 are assembled or made in Germany, as long as the manufacture and assembly is held to a very high standard. As we know, Zeiss lenses are manufactured in Japan, but to Zeiss' standards.

YEs, I believe ETA is owned by the swatch group, as is omega.

 

My trusty submariner has been thru thick and thin with me for years, apart from some scratches on the metal portions the thing is still ticking on...after some serious abuse.

 

Also, as rolex uses 904 steel instead of 316, its stainless steel parts are more scratch resistant as compared to other makes .

 

So I am fine if china, japan or any country is able to make a similar watch.

 

Ditto for cameras: good IQ, good design and functionality and most important of all, the camera must bring joy when being used irregardless where it's made.

 

In fact, I've had seiko watches that were remarkable and ahead of their time. Way ahead.

[larsv]

I copied this from the Industrie- und Handelskammer Schwerin, Germany:

 

Requirements for „made in Germany“

 

A product “Made in Germany” must fulfil the following requirements:

Those services and components which are crucial to the quality and valuation of the goods must have been per- formed or manufactured in Germany. The description “Made in Germany” is not justified by simply assembling parts that have been prefabricated abroad, carry- ing out a final inspection or labelling the goods in Germany. On the other hand, some parts or components of an indus- trial product may certainly be supplied from abroad, but the essential parts of the final product must always originate in Germany.

A significant refinement may justify the description “Made in Germany”, but here too the above statement still applies: the refinement must be crucial to the quality and valuation of the product.

 

Examples

 

Some examples illustrating the above criteria are given here; it must however be noted that these examples cannot be applied as a general rule. Whether the production processes which take place in Germany are crucial to the quality and valuation of the product always depends on the features of the product and the industry concerned.

 

A company produces objectives for cameras. The lenses are manufactured in Germany. The extremely complex assembly requiring maximum precision takes place in Germany. The housing is supplied from abroad.

This product may bear the “Made in Germany” seal if the valuation of the product results from the quality of the lenses and the assembly.

 

A company produces DVD recorders. The electronic components are supplied from abroad. The final assembly of the

„made in Germany“ units takes place in Germany. This product is not allowed to bear the description “Made in Germany” as the product was only assembled in Germany.

 

A company produces tanks made of stainless steel. Because of a special chemical and mechanical surface treatment they are suitable for the storage of ultrapure gases. The semi-fin- ished tanks are supplied from abroad; the surface treatment is carried out in Germany.

The final product may be designated as “Made in Ger- many” if it is the surface treatment that is crucial to the quality of the product.

[phancj]

Larsv,

 

If what you put forth is fact, then the speculation that the lens is made in asia may be wrong, or leica is flouting regulations. The reason I say this is the sensor we know almost for certain as japanese, and the shutter no one knows., so essential components are those 3 things, no?

 

I thought initially when I bought the X1 that the lens was indeed made in germany to comply with the claim, but are made by some oem maker in germany thats competent enough.

[andybarton]

Leica will not be flouting the law. They will be doing "just enough" and adding "just enough value" to the component parts to comply with the registration requirements. It is quite possible that the metal body parts are made by one of their sister companies in Germany.

 

Most of the M9, M8, M7 manufacture is done in Portugal, with sufficient left to qualify for a "Made in Germany" badge. The metal bodies are made in Germany and shipped to Portugal for assembly. The same could be true of the X1. However, it wouldn't surprise me if the necessary final assembly of X1s is done somewhere other than the Solms factory.

 

The "Leicas" that never see Germany are clearly marked Made in Japan.

[larsv]

In addition to previous posts: I understand that a new regulation has been adopted by the EU for products imported into the EU. The jurisdictions/countries in the EU may still have their own regulations for compliance with the "made in...(relevant jurisdiction)" label.

[earleygallery]

Does anyone here really think that Leica would stamp 'made in Germany' on their products without being legally entitled to do so? Do you not think that they may possibly have checked the rules out first?

 

What is certain is that much of the X1 is sourced abroad. Clearly there is enough input in the manufacturing process (which could include assembly, quality control, testing, software development, packaging etc) to qualify as a made in Germany product.

 

Isn't that enough? Do we need to know the nationality of the individuals at the Leica factory, I mean what if a Mexican/Brit/Russian is employed at Solms to assemble your X1, would that upset you?

[larsv]

Phancj,

 

Appreciate your thoughts. I'm not an expert in this field. My expertise is in tax and accounting enhanced and financial structuring of large scale projects.

 

Usually there are many roads leading to the same conclusion. If a product is being marketed in its industry based on a specialty that is manufactured and added in this case in Germany, than I would think it may qualify for the "made in Germany" label. I have no clue how Leica has laid out their strategy for the label, but am pretty confident that it has not been jotted down on a rainy Sunday afternoon.

 

Cheers

Lars

[phancj]

I do not give a hoot where it's made as long as it's well made.

 

But this discussion turned out interesting...for a boring tuesday afternoon.

 

CJ

[spylaw4]

This thread has gone far enough - CLOSE IT!

 

 

 

Please!