Xmas Posted February 18, 2011 Share #21 Posted February 18, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi There are film virgins around who have only used a M8 or M9, and when we get one on an outing we ask them to try a M2, focus, fire a frame, wind on... most have some difficulty handing the M2 back. Don't try an M2 in the dealers shop... makes an M6 feel like a bucket of nails. Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Hi Xmas, Take a look here Back to film but which M?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest nafpie Posted February 18, 2011 Share #22 Posted February 18, 2011 Don't try an M2 in the dealers shop... makes an M6 feel like a bucket of nails. There is no need to exaggerate in that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 18, 2011 Share #23 Posted February 18, 2011 John, welcome. You have had some sage advice here, particularly in the useful post from Menos. There are just a couple of points I'd like to add. I too came from Contax to Leica (159 and RX SLRs and G1 and G2). I ran the two in parallel for some time then never looked back. Coming from Contax you will appreciate the build quality and the "rightness" in your hand. As to what to get, the choice is yours. Avoid premium special editions like the RPS, don't be afraid to buy secondhand, especially from specialist dealers who know the brand (many of whom advertise on here). I can speak highly of the M2 (mechanical purity) the MP (mechanical purity with a little electronic assistance) and the M7 (electronic shutter) all of which I have now. The M6 is also a fine choice, but I would go for a later one to avoid "zinkfass" or rot, which blights the early models. As a rough guide look for one with the anti-rub inserts. You cannot make a bad choice, but you can make a wrong one - if you do don't worry, and remember two things. Firstly, it is hard to lose money on Leica, and second, it is only your first one... Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 18, 2011 Share #24 Posted February 18, 2011 The price mentioned is certainly very high, far too high for a user camera. I recently paid 1000 Euro for a factory-new (old stock) M6 classic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
freusen Posted February 18, 2011 Share #25 Posted February 18, 2011 ............there is an RPS M6 at £2750 with the 50mm Summmicron ............ Stay away from Special Editions, they are too expensive. A mint M6 should be no more than £1000 and a mint 50mm Summicron no more than £800. ------------ FrankR Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 18, 2011 Share #26 Posted February 18, 2011 I've used an M2, M3 and M6 - and owned all three at the same time. The camera I kept returning to, and using the most, was the M6. The M2/3 are prettier, and the brass gearing smoother, but I preferred the M6 as a workhorse primarily because of the meter and additional frame lines. Of the three, the only one I still own is the M6. It's a very personal decision. The only thing that I would add would be that if you think you've bought the wrong model you should be able to sell it for more or less what you paid for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted February 18, 2011 Share #27 Posted February 18, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) The M6 is also a fine choice, but I would go for a later one to avoid "zinkfass" or rot, which blights the early models. As a rough guide look for one with the anti-rub inserts. Well it is better to look for the little pits as mine #242xxxx an anti rub job already has disappearing top plate and back door, but it was real cheap, with box, & the plastic protector still on base plate, etc., ... You cannot make a bad choice, but you can make a wrong one - and second, it is only your first one... sigh... to true I've used an M2, M3 and M6 - and owned all three at the same time. The camera I kept returning to, and using the most, was the M6. The M2/3 are prettier, and the brass gearing smoother, but I preferred the M6 as a workhorse primarily because of the meter and additional frame lines. yes but some people cannot live with the meter (compelling) or frame lines(cluttered), the next time your are on an outing I will get you to wind on an M2... The post M4 cameras have steel gears if you need the 'motor' or leicavit winder... if you are left eyed you might need the leicavit. Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xalo Posted February 18, 2011 Share #28 Posted February 18, 2011 Hi John, The most important was already said, so just some personal observations from my search. I used M3, M2, M6TTL (0.85), M6 and MP, all 2nd hand, and kept the first and the last in line. Each has its own feel, but the TTL sure differs from its siblings. Besides the slightly taller size, what I felt somehow significant was the speed dial turning in the opposite sense of the other mechanical M's. The TTL's dial turns counter-clockwise for faster speeds, just like M7, 8 and 9 and the Leica SLR dials. If at one point you want a second body, your reflexes might want to keep the same twist then. Mine did. Perhaps that's a non-issue to some, but anyway. Framelines and finder magnification were another thing. The newer M's finders mostly show a pair of framelines at once. (The TTL 0.85 shows the 90 alone). I found simultaneously seeing the (quite close) lines for the 50 and the 75 a bit distracting. As for finder magnification, besides wearing glasses, it also depends on your framing style. The larger the magnification (closer to 1), the easier you could frame both eyes open. Of the cameras above, for me, this woks best with the M3 at 50. However, there are no built-in framelines for the 35 in an M3 (but that was already said). As for an uncluttered view, the M2 is amazing. When I found a MP whose finder had been built to order the same way, I did not resist. Enjoy your search and the photos you'll find on the way! Cheers, Alexander Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 18, 2011 Share #29 Posted February 18, 2011 Alexander makes a good point. Both my M7 and my MP are .85, so have no 28mm framelines. In addition, my MP is an "MP4", with the 75mm framelines removed too. This was the nearest I could get on a la carte to the cleanliness of the M2. Regards, Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted February 18, 2011 Share #30 Posted February 18, 2011 ...to my mind, the auto feature on the M7 is grossly over-rated if you understand and shoot negative film only, particularly black and white. It also stunts your photographic development (cerebrally, that is). Great camera, though. I shoot b&w negative film almost exclusively with my M7. I use Auto 95% of the time. But, I learned how to use it. So. I'm afraid have to disagree with you as I feel that, cerebrally, my photographic development is doing fine. There's no reason why the OP's wouldn't be too, especially coming from an M8/9, which are just digital versions of the M7 after all. Usual caveats re YMMV and all that stuff.., Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
400TX Posted February 18, 2011 Share #31 Posted February 18, 2011 I would go with an MP 0.72 (black, of course). If you are looking to buy used, the M4-P is nice, although it requires a hand held meter. I have both these M cameras and am very well pleased with them. The M6 classic is a nice camera too, if you want an onboard meter, as is the M7. It would be hard to go wrong with any one of the four, IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted February 18, 2011 Share #32 Posted February 18, 2011 yes but some people cannot live with the meter (compelling) or frame lines(cluttered), the next time your are on an outing I will get you to wind on an M2... Noel, I've owned an M2, I know how it the mechanics feel. As I said in my original post it's a personal decision. Not buying an M6 is a bit of a red herring though, you just don't bother putting a battery in the meter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted February 18, 2011 Share #33 Posted February 18, 2011 Hi Steve I regret to advise I was teasing, about the M2. But I do have a M6, I don't always bother with a battery, the rangefinder spot does flare, the topplate chrome is dissappearing, and I've replaced the baseplate to allow use of IXMOO, I can live with the gears cause I'm not tactile like that. Most of the time I use an M2. Noel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 19, 2011 Share #34 Posted February 19, 2011 I use an M9 - my first real digital after years of film SLRs. Having accumulated a nice collection of 4 M lenses, I'm also looking at getting a film camera. The MP looks like the business. Good mechanics, with the assistance of a meter. Perfect! There is mention above of reverse directions on the shutter speed dial. Om the M9, you turn the shutter dial int the same direction as the aperture on the lens - to the left for more light. The logic of this is simple as you have your eye to the camera. Does the MP shutter dial turn the opposite way? Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted February 19, 2011 Share #35 Posted February 19, 2011 Does the MP shutter dial turn the opposite way? Yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aesop Posted February 20, 2011 Share #36 Posted February 20, 2011 I shoot b&w negative film almost exclusively with my M7. I use Auto 95% of the time. But, I learned how to use it. So. I'm afraid have to disagree with you as I feel that, cerebrally, my photographic development is doing fine. There's no reason why the OP's wouldn't be too, especially coming from an M8/9, which are just digital versions of the M7 after all. Usual caveats re YMMV and all that stuff.., ...no need to lock horns over my wretched opinion, Señor Barton. An auto-function is, by definition, a crutch - pure and simple. That's all I'm saying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted February 20, 2011 Share #37 Posted February 20, 2011 ...no need to lock horns over my wretched opinion, Señor Barton. An auto-function is, by definition, a crutch - pure and simple. That's all I'm saying. I like the AE in my M7 quite a bit. I love, to have a shutter dial, which allows me, to shoot in AE and flinch to a manual speed with a flick of the wheel. With modern DSLRs, you have to suffer from switching menus, programming button sequences, to arrive, where a M7/M8/M9 brings you within milliseconds. I like that. It's no crutch for me. I like not, that the M7 shutter speed dial doesn't stop at either end (AE <-> - this would make setting shutter speeds even quicker and more intuitive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 20, 2011 Share #38 Posted February 20, 2011 Yes. Hmm, now that's a problem. I like the purity of the MP, but to have the shutter dial go in the opposite direction could get confusing ... So, here's the thing - I can get a mint MP (purchased in 2005, hardly used, apparently), with a black 35 Cron (uncoded) for USD 4,200 (~3,000 Euro). Conversely, I can get an M7 for about USD 2,900 (~2,150 Euro). What is the difference between these two cameras (apart from the obvious electronic shutter v mechanical, and aperture priority auto function). This is a complete whim, as I'm buying unseen and I haven't held either camera in my hands. However, I have an M9 so I have an idea what to expect. Just can't quite let go of the idea of film ... Any thoughts? If I go this route, will I use it (no one can answer that, I guess). I would take a mixture of slide and B&W, which I'd then scan for my own use. The appeal of having one of these classic film bodies in my bag appeals, but I'm not sure if it's really sensible. Any thoughts? Anyone has strong preferences for one over the other - M7 or MP? Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted February 21, 2011 Share #39 Posted February 21, 2011 Hmm, now that's a problem. I like the purity of the MP, but to have the shutter dial go in the opposite direction could get confusing ... So, here's the thing - I can get a mint MP (purchased in 2005, hardly used, apparently), with a black 35 Cron (uncoded) for USD 4,200 (~3,000 Euro). Conversely, I can get an M7 for about USD 2,900 (~2,150 Euro). What is the difference between these two cameras (apart from the obvious electronic shutter v mechanical, and aperture priority auto function). This is a complete whim, as I'm buying unseen and I haven't held either camera in my hands. However, I have an M9 so I have an idea what to expect. Just can't quite let go of the idea of film ... Any thoughts? If I go this route, will I use it (no one can answer that, I guess). I would take a mixture of slide and B&W, which I'd then scan for my own use. The appeal of having one of these classic film bodies in my bag appeals, but I'm not sure if it's really sensible. Any thoughts? Anyone has strong preferences for one over the other - M7 or MP? Cheers John The MP with Cron (which version?) sounds about right, if both items have no obvious signs of usage and come with box and papers. The M7 sounds too expensive. Used, nice M7 go for about 1.600 − 1.800 in Shanghai, where Leica is generally expensive (beaten suer samples can be had already for about 1.400 EUR). I would NOT buy ANY of these cameras unseen, untried without descent return policy !!! You must check certain things on a second hand (also new) Leica M, where it comes handy, when you have the choice between several second hand bodies and can pick the nicest one. Yesterday, I tried 4 different second hand MP bodies in mint to slightly used appearance. Three of them showed minor issues, like loose preview lever, slightly loose rewind lever, slight play in rewind knob, sticky frame preview, rough advance, … These issues CANNOT be known, when buying unseen - you have to deal with them, which can be uncomfortable. The loose preview lever/ worse though sticky preview can be an easy DIY fix with the right tools, but it also can be a travel and repair (CLA) in Solms (or any other qualified independent Leica technician). Other things to check are very nicely summed up on cameraquest.com by Steven Gandy. All things mechanical Leica have to be checked by the buyer even with a slightly used almost new MP. What surprised me a lot yesterday was, that none of all 4 MP bodies had the perfect smooth, tight and precise feeling of my M6 classic, as the smooth MP film advance is fabled here and elsewhere on the net. I expected it, to at least match the feel of my M6, but instead, it felt somewhere between the rattly M7 and my perfect M6. If you shoot the M9 and like the way, it works, I would definitely go for the M7. Everything is there, that you are used to - even a on/off switch. The mechanical superiority of the MP is a myth, I have concluded after having handled different bodies now. The MP always is more expensive than the M7 (between 200 − 400 EUR generally), but does not offer more for the money (just different). With a second hand M7, you should check, if the camera is an early model with mechanical DX reader (golden protruding contacts in the film chamber, to read the film canisters DX code) or a later/ upgraded model with optical DX reader. Check the M7, if it flares more than you want it to in strong backlight. I have found yesterday, that the digital M (my M8.2) has a much improved finder over the MP and M7 - it is always full contrasty and shows NO whiteout, where either the MP AND the M7 does flare. My M6 classic flares/ whites out even more than either MP and M7. I find this an issue with the M6/M7/MP, as I come over this issue rather often and find it distracting, to have to adjust the camera angle, to prevent flare to focus, while my M8.2 just goes. Btw, I have in my most of the time: M8.2 +Noctilux and M7 + 35Lux ASPH + TriX400/ Neopan400 @ ISO3200. I find this an ideal combination, as they perfectly complement each other. By switching lenses between bodies, I get different angles of view, while the M7 @ 3200 pushed BW film + Noctilux let's me shoot in light levels, completely unknown to the digital M. I think, one digital + one film body is the perfect match. Metering between digital M and film body: I have found a workflow for me, that would be argued by others, but it is fluid and easy for me: I meter my M8.2 and M7 exactly the same. In different light, I will over/underexpose to certain image areas the same. The M7 though has a very, very nice exposure compensation dial with interlock, which I really like. I use this exposure control dial on the M7, to adjust my metering to the used film/ development. I tend, to overexpose TriX 400 @ 3200 in very dark frames by +1/3 to +2/3, which gives me better negatives. I shoot Neopan without exposure compensation though. The M7 let's me adjust this compensation on the fly without me having to think about it every frame - the MP has no such extra function - you have to compensate by yourself. If you shoot different kind of films, which need a different metering approach, you might find this feature handy - or maybe not and go with the more simple approach of the MP and think about metering every frame carefully. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 21, 2011 Share #40 Posted February 21, 2011 Thanks very much for the guidance - I will try to look at the camera in the next day or so. It looks very good in the pictures, so I will just try to get a feel for it - I'll check the curtain for pinholes etc, but I guess the real test is how it feels. The 35 Cron is Asph, uncoded also from 2005. I expect it to be in perfect condition. I don't need two of these lenses, so I would sell it here - I guess I can expect to get about 1,500 Euro for it? More? Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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