Two-lens or three-lens strategy?

[Christoph13]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

RE: reasons for picking the M9 over the M8 - you will need wider than about "24mm", or you will need wider than "28mm" and reasonable lens speed (f/2.8 or faster).

 

If an 18 f/3.8 cropped to "24mm", a 21f/2.8 or f/1.4 cropped to "28mm" or a 16-18-21 f/4 cropped to "21-24-28" will suit your needs (at ISO 1250), the M8 will be OK.

This is likely going to be the case. Until I will be ready to buy a very wide lens, I will most likely be eyeing an M10.

And let's face it, an M8 is going to be 1/3rd the price of an M9, freeing up $4,000/€3000 for your lens budget.

Yep, absolutely. Let's call it wiggle room for discussing the matter with the family But I will definitely allocate my funds in a way that lets me secure the lenses I need or want first.

Bear in mind that long and fast is not the forte of rangefinders. Focusing becomes problematic above 50mm f/1.4-75 f/2 (yes, it can be done - it just gets a lot harder) - and with something like the 90 f/2, you are getting very close to the size/weight of a equivalent SLR lens (a 90 f/2 lens has to have a certain size to accomodate both the aperture and focal length).

 

IMHO - if you are pretty certain of the M8, I would recommend a 50 f/2 or f/1.4 ("70mm" equivalent - since Leica's 50s are really 52mm or thereabouts) and a 24 f/2.8 ("32mm" equivalent - does not require any accesory finder) for a start. There is a 24 f/1.4 - but not for limited budgets

 

For a third lens, you could try out a 90 f/2.8 (most are more on the Leica M size-scale than the f/2s) and see how focusing goes for you.

 

Sounds like a very good plan. Thanks

Chris

[Christoph13]

With anticipation of eventually going FF (which is how I constructed my lens selections for my M8) I would suggest the following:

 

24mm and 50mm

 

24mm is effectively a 32mm on the M8's cropped sensor - making it a great walk-around, everyday lens.

 

50mm becomes 67mm - making it a good option for portraits.

 

I know you mentioned you have an affinity for longer lenses, in which case, instead of the 50mm go for a 75/90?

 

75mm becomes 100mm and 90mm becomes a 120mm. So pick your poison there.

 

My two most used lenses on my M8 (the two that I usually ALWAYS have with me) are the 24mm 'Lux (possible THE BEST lens for the M8 (if you can live with the size) and 90mm 'Cron which gives me the reach I need for situations where I cannot get close to.

 

And because read words is never as fun as looking at photos, here are some to "persuade" you that my favorites are the way to go.

 

 

The first two are with the 24 Lux and the latter two are with the 90 Cron pre-AA. Hope this helps?

 

Eddie

many thanks for posting these pictures, they are all good but the second really grabs me. Having a wide angle shot with selective sharpness in available light is indeed a strong argument. If only the price tag was different for that lens.

 

Re the 90s: How hard is it to get the focus just right when shooting wide open (which is what I would be doing often)?

Chris

[dickgrafixstop]

I'd suggest a different approach. Take your budget - with or without selling your SLR lenses - and figure out what you can do. I might suggest starting with a M series film camera. You can buy one for less than half of what even a used M8 (generally ~ $1000 versus ~$2000).

You now have $1000 to spend on a lens plus what you would have spent for a lens for the

M8. That should get you a decent 50mm summicron and you're off to the races. That camera will give you the experience you need to determine what your next lens should be, but more importantly, get you hooked on (or off) rangefinder photography.

 

Since you appear to be looking long term, I would not consider the M8 or the M8.2. While they are fine cameras as they go, the cropped sensor is not a good long term investment.

Not even the wildest rumors have surfaced about an M8.3 or whatever, and the value of the

cameras will only decrease over time (even with diehard "collectors"). With an M9.2 or M10 and so on, full frame sensors should continue to provide "the Leica experience" so either mortgage the house and step up or be patient for a reasonable used market to develop. You may need to be very patient, but technology will push even Leica into product enhancement.

 

All of the previous posts offer good combinations for the posters. You'll need to follow your eye and establish your own kit. Personally I prefer the 35/75 combination, but that's based on shooting style. If I had to own a third lens, I'd probably opt for a 21 or 24, but

the required external viewfinder offends my sensibilities. I found the 90 and the 135 too difficult to focus accurately but that has more to due with my vision than the lenses themselves.

 

The good news is that, unlike your SLR equipment, it will be hard to make a bad decision on whatever you buy. Should you not like whatever you choose, there is a ready secondary market and you can recoup all or nearly all of whatever you spend. The bad news is you're likely to love it and be hooked on a never ending quest for the perfect kit, an arduous and never ending expensive journey.

[ezc203]

Eddie

many thanks for posting these pictures, they are all good but the second really grabs me. Having a wide angle shot with selective sharpness in available light is indeed a strong argument. If only the price tag was different for that lens.

 

Re the 90s: How hard is it to get the focus just right when shooting wide open (which is what I would be doing often)?

Chris

 

You're welcome Chris. I agree that the 24 'Lux is WAY too expensive, but luckily I purchased mine in Hong Kong while I was visiting friends and a brand new copy costed me a little over 5000 USD (with taxes as opposed to $7000+ retail in the US). So I jumped on the opportunity.

 

As to answer your question regarding the focusing on the 90mm Cron. At f2.0 (which is really when the "magic" really shines) it takes a bit of concentration. Depending on how smooth your focusing ring is (mine is a little on the stiff side) it may be easier/harder. But with a bit of practice, look what you can get:

 

 

(This is shot on Portra 160NC not the M8)

[Christoph13]

I'd suggest a different approach. Take your budget - with or without selling your SLR lenses - and figure out what you can do. I might suggest starting with a M series film camera. You can buy one for less than half of what even a used M8 (generally ~ $1000 versus ~$2000).

You now have $1000 to spend on a lens plus what you would have spent for a lens for the

M8. That should get you a decent 50mm summicron and you're off to the races. That camera will give you the experience you need to determine what your next lens should be, but more importantly, get you hooked on (or off) rangefinder photography.

 

I thought about that, too, but while it sounds compelling at first the practicalities spell out a little differently for me. For the digital world I have everything I will need from the computer hardware to software needed to develop the DNGs etc. On the other side, there are no local shops developing film any longer around here and film and chemicals are getting rather expensive, too. Since I moved to another place the darkroom I could use is no longer at my disposal so that opportunity is gone, too.

 

Since you appear to be looking long term, I would not consider the M8 or the M8.2. While they are fine cameras as they go, the cropped sensor is not a good long term investment.

Not even the wildest rumors have surfaced about an M8.3 or whatever, and the value of the

cameras will only decrease over time (even with diehard "collectors").

 

Yes but so will the value of an M9.1 once the next model is out. Even Leica hardware will follow that trend of shortened product half life as long as said product contains electronics. Maybe to a lesser degree than elsewhere but I anticipate the loss of value in the cameras hence I am determined to invest more in lenses which should retain their values for a longer time.

 

With an M9.2 or M10 and so on, full frame sensors should continue to provide "the Leica experience" so either mortgage the house and step up or be patient for a reasonable used market to develop. You may need to be very patient, but technology will push even Leica into product enhancement.

What I photograph the most at the moment and have been for the last decade is my family. While your advice to wait for the next round of cameras in order to protect my investment is sound I would lose unrecoverable opportunities to take photos of what I care taking photos of the most. Not that I don't do that right now but it is something I am looking forward to when thinking about making the switch. The incentive to do that when my kids will have moved out is much lower.

The good news is that, unlike your SLR equipment, it will be hard to make a bad decision on whatever you buy. Should you not like whatever you choose, there is a ready secondary market and you can recoup all or nearly all of whatever you spend. The bad news is you're likely to love it and be hooked on a never ending quest for the perfect kit, an arduous and never ending expensive journey.

I admit that I feel like you are reading my mind with your last statement

I'll be progressing slowly for many reasons. But ironically, the fewer lenses I end up owning the harder I find taking the first step. If the first lens were a 50mm lens, then neither a 75 nor a 35 make a lot of sense as the next one whereas that would change if the first one were a 35 or shorter. Decisions, decisions.

 

Don't be offended, I value your input, but while I am sure it will help many others I feel that for me personally an M8 might be a better option now. Or maybe wait say another year and see how things pan out. I am considering this seriously as I am under the impression that even the used market is pretty much in short supply, too, or is that just my limited experience with the Leica market?

 

Chris

[Printmaker]

I find it hard to go with 2 lenses on a M8. Three are better. My 3 lens kit includes the 21, 35 and 90. The same 3 work well with the M9. And the 35 and 90 are a good two lens M9 combo.

 

So, depending on the 21 mm lens you have not chosen to buy, you already have $600 to $6,000 in savings. Put that money towards the purchase of a M9. Add that to the cost of a M8 you did not buy and you have already paid for your new M9 with new 35 and 90 Summarit lenses.

 

How's that for fuzzy math?

 

Tom

[RichardM8]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

So many advise and views... I would be more confused than I was before this thread.

 

 

I think a good s/h M8(.2) is excellent to explore M rangefinders. I offers the full M experience at a much more reasonable (understatement) investment than a new M9. After a long period of consideration this is what I did only a few months ago.

 

I sold all my Canon SLR gear & lenses + my excellent X1 I bought a mint M8.2 with a new Elmarit 28 ASPH 2.8. Only one lens for now. No doubt I will add one or two more lenses in the future but for now I have more than my hands full learning the M and the totally different way of working it demands. It really is very different than any SLR and/or P&S (obviously).

 

When I was in my decision process (through a long thread on this forum) the 'advise' I got the most was 'get the M9!'. It seems common on forums that the latest'n greatest is always advised a the best thing to do regardless what the forum is about. I don't know how much of this comes from owners (unconsciously) justifying their own decisions/purchase or not.

 

At the end of the day I found the investment for a new M9 too high to justify for myself although I had the money. I didn't even knew/know if the whole rangefinder thing suits me or not. For now I am very happy that I bought the M8.2 saved a ton of money & depreciation and I really enjoy using and learning it.

 

I wish you wise decisions!

 

Richard.

[fursan]

My choice is what I use now on the M8..

 

28/50/75. cron/lux/cron.

 

I use the same with my D700..24-70 and a 85/100.

 

Regards.

[bill]

Hi Bill

many thanks for compiling this information. There are some lenses missing, e.g. 24/1.4, 21/1.4, MATE etc but no harm done, they are out of reach for me anyway

 

You are welcome, Chris. Actually the MATE is shown, it is the WATE that is missing Anything not shown by the way is because it was introduced into the market in the past six years since I complied those slides - that includes, for instance, all the Zeiss lenses

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Knomad]

I rarely carry more than two lenses with my M8. Usually it's a 35mm and a 50mm, although really the 35mm is almost always on the camera and I use the 50 only if I know in advance that I'm going to be doing more portrait type work. With a rangefinder I try to stay away from the SLR mentality of constantly changing lenses.

 

Although I own a 90mm, it's difficult to use on the M8, and I really use it only on older film bodies. On a crop sensor, it's a tiny little area in the middle of the viewfinder and can really complicate composing not to mention the extra care needed to focus. On an M9, a 90 once again should be practical although really wider to normal lenses are the strength of a rangefinder.

[pklein]

Chris: I have had an M8 for over 3 years, and I'm very happy with it. 35mm is my "normal" focal length and most-used lens. 50mm is probably the next most used, with 28mm and 90mm closely tied for thrid place. When I travel, I take one fast lens (usually the 35/1.4 Summilux ASPH), a 50 Summicron, and small, light Voigtlander 28/3.5 and 90/3.5.

 

The Voigtlander (CV) lenses are a great way to round out your kit without spending too much money. So if you can afford one or two Leica lenses, get them in your most-used focal lengths, and you can buy a used CV for the less-used focal lengths.

 

Back in the film days, I shot most with a 50, next with a 35, least with a 90.

 

If I wanted to carry less, I would leave the 90 at home (or in the hotel safe when traveling). If I could have only one lens on the M8, it would be the 35/1.4.

 

--Peter

[tbarker13]

M8 is a great way to start. As you say - if you decide you don't like it (and have shopped well) you won't lose much if you decide to sell it in the near future.

Remember, you aren't marrying any of this gear. Buy used and buy smart. With lenses, there's really no reason for you to lose any money if you later decide to sell something you bought while switching to another lens. (That advice goes out the door if you insist on buying new lenses.)

 

As for your choices, it's really quite simple. Get something wide, long and something in-between. Personally, I tend to invest the bulk of my money in the FL I will use the most. That's 35mm for me. So that's where I'll have most expensive lens. Next is a portrait lens - for me, that's a 75. Then I'd pick a 28.

 

Another way to approach it - get the camera and a 28 or 35 and see how things go. Figure out what it is you want to do that this 1-lens setup doesn't allow. Then address that shortcoming. Rinse and repeat.

[ramosa]

Chris,

 

Welcome to RFF.

 

It sounds like you are experienced with DSLRs, but new to RFs. That's where I was three years back. I'd recommend that you start with an M8 and then move on later to an M9. (This is a "safe" approach as there are certainly people who try RFs and don't like them.) Of course, if you have money falling out of your pockets, just get the M9 now. I still have an M8 and have no need for anything else. The only thing holding my photography back is me, not my M8. Someday, I may get an M9, but I'm certainly not pining for one.

 

Lens choices get complicated when you're thinking of an M8 now and a FF down the road. Moreover, lens choices depend on how you personally see and shoot. I have a 28, 50, and 80 on my M8. If I were to change to an M9, I'd want the 50, but may think about swapping the 28 for a 35 and the 80 for a 90. Thus, on an M9, I'd likely want the classic trinity of 35, 50, 90.

 

I like having three lenses--and do not want more. (OK, I'd happily take a Nocti if it fell on my lap! But, seriously, I also had an 18, but recently sold it. I just don't need it and don't want extra things that don't get used.) You mention two lens scenarios: 1) 28 and 35 or 75; and 2) 24, 50, and 90. For me, the 28 and 35 would be too close in focal length for use in the first scenario--and, in the second scenario, I'd remove the 24 and replace it with a 28 (for use on an M8) or 35 (for use on an M9).

 

Anyway, I'm sure you'll figure things out ...

[bill]

"Welcome to RFF"?!?!?

 

Dear Dawkins, NO!

[santdtman]

On my M8 i have a 28 Elmarit asph (as a FF 35mm equivalent), a 50mm Nokton (because its fast, affordable and a equivalent to nearly 70mm on FF). I am now considering buying a cron or lux 35mm (as a nearly 50mm equivalent on FF).

 

No need for me personally to go higher than 50 (or 70) on a Rangefinder camera. Think it would be a hassle. But i am not a big tele-fotografer. Never was.

[geoffreyg]

Long term M2 user got an M8 a few years back. Had shot with a 35 mm 'cron for years, and loved it, and got a 28 2.8 for the M8. Its pretty good, but the tone isn't quite as nice as (I recall) the 35, but its the main, good lens.

 

The next favorite is the 50mm 'cron - just lovely lens. Actually prefer it to any other lens on the camera.

 

Also have 3 CV lenses, 15, 21 and 75. The 21 is pretty good field of view, but not quite as crisp as the 15, and thus a bit out of favor. The 15 is just a sweetheart of a lens. Tremendous, as is the CV 75 f 2.5. Framing with the 75 is a challenge tho.

 

So the 2 lens setup is (IMHO) 28 and 50. No doubt about it!

Third lens? 15 for wide, or maybe the 21. The 75 is fun, but not needed.

 

As to the M9 - would like it, but expensive, won't help the compositional challenges of the RF, and the lens lineup would have to change. Took the funds and got MF instead for that. No regrets, mostly.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Geoff

 

images: two 28mm, a 15mm (in color), and one 50 mm.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Christoph13]

Thanks everyone,

I have finally come to a solution with part of my problem of choice. Only to find out that this creates yet another round of new problems.

I found a used M8 not too far from my home town that I could try out, the owner even let me play around with some of his own lenses which was a great thing since I don't own lenses myself. I ended up considering some more and buying it finally. It is in good condition and sitting on my desk.

 

I found a used Elmarit 90 on ebay which still has not made its way here. Maybe not the wisest move to start with a long lens but the price was good and I knew I had to stop looking at the APO I was lusting for. But even I knew it was out of the question.

 

I absolutely wanted a 35 Summicron and got one used, too. It was in near perfect condition, external surfaces very clean, no wear, no scratches. But when I inspected the internal lens surfaces under a microscope, under some lighting conditions there were millions of little specks that could only be interpreted as fungal growth. Back it went

 

So I am still sitting here with nothing but a camera, waiting to take delivery of a 90 Elmarit and wonder.

A 35 Summicron would perhaps make a nice two lens kit. But perhaps a 28 Elmarit might be a good way to get acquainted with RF photography and sometime in the future some kind of 50 might get added.

 

I'll keep you updated. Sincere thanks for all your input

Chris

[roguewave]

My 40mm Summicron-C f/2.0 would beg to differ.

 

This would be my choice. I have both lenses the Summicron & the Rokker. Same optical formulation, but the Rokker has a more recent coating formula, with less flare. It is a "pancake" size lens,so the M8 (or M9) & the 40 is probably the most compact kit you can carry in that general focal length. Images are amazing wide open. Awesome bokeh, Very sweet & not forced. Ultra smooth transitions in the bokeh. The lens is CHEAP!!!

 

On the wide side I recommend the Zeiss Biogon ZM 21. Almost have the cost of Leica and I prefer the more natural better. The color is fabulous & the B&W rendering is even better, Sharp, but not clinical. With the crop it's a 28mm. Good Luck.

[garygsandhu]

Get small and cheap:

M8 and 28/3.5 voigtlander.

Then later a leica 50/2 summicron.

Then, most importantly: STOP BUYING.

But keep practicing using those.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Erik Gunst Lund]

Current to go kit includes: Leitz 40/2, CV 90/3.5 APO Lanthar and ZM 28/2.8 Biogon all three go nicely hand in hand, very similar drawing/footprint from these lenses.