Riley Posted January 20, 2007 Share #41  Posted January 20, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) 1) Yes, I'm very curious about this aspect. 2) That was the scenario for me (a pub in an inn).  3) I do think there could be something to this. The other M8 I'm working with also locked up like this during that same shoot but it came back after a battery reset. The static electricity in the room was very noticeable.  Engineers on the list...what do you think? How would this fit with the camera LCD staying on even when the switch moves to off? How about the fact that it seems to misread the battery strength after this failure. Is there a shielding issue involved? How did Canon fix the problem? I'm no engineer.  Cheers,  Sean  I think I asked this question some months ago is the M8 shielded or not ? shielding is the fix for issues like that, IF thats the problem  there may even be a difference between bare feet and rubber soled shoes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted January 20, 2007 Author Share #42 Â Posted January 20, 2007 Some people have asked if it's a mistake to buy an M8 right now. I can say that I'd do it all over again in a heartbeat but I don't mind living through the teething pains because I love working with that camera. A subscriber wrote to me this morning and is concerned about owning a $5K paperweight. I don't think that's going to be the situation at all. Early adopters may or may not need to deal with some problems but I'm confident that Leica will not abandon owners who experience these problems. Â Frankly, it takes a bit of patience and perspective to be an M8 owner right now. The pleasures of working with the camera are great so one has to weigh the challenges vs. the pleasures and make a call. It's been not so different when BMW has introduced certain new motorcycles but, again, the enjoyment factor there can be through the roof as well. Â If I thought that the M8 wouldn't be reliable for professional work, I'd be unhappy. But I think it will become reliable as things get sorted out and I can live with that. Â Cheers, Â Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted January 20, 2007 Share #43  Posted January 20, 2007 Riley,benefitting both customer, leica and shareholders if done correctly.Current implementation by Leica is more likely to capsize Leica don't you think?  best andy  your asking me what i think  they are dealing with issues as they arise going backwards is not an option small firms can afford history is filled with the remains of companies that have tried given that, they have no option but to press on  just my mind but, Id rather deal with the problems pragmaticly than bitch about issues I dont have Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym911 Posted January 20, 2007 Share #44 Â Posted January 20, 2007 Riley, understand your opinion, I have a different one which is fine. Â BTW who is bitching about problems they don't have? Â andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
okram Posted January 20, 2007 Share #45 Â Posted January 20, 2007 As you may recall I stopped my order at the last minute and invested in 5D for a digital set up even though I was desperate for the M8.(emotionally)Looking now at these threads just confirms my suspicions of December that the camera is not ready for Pro use.Pro use means dependability and consistency. The most disturbing matter for actual users or potential buyers I see as I follow these threads, is the constant NEW problems that keep rearing their heads. On top of that such hardware QC issues like rangefinder alignment really make me believe that Leica have bitten off more than they can chew. I believe that Leica should stop shipping this product, take the time to solve ALL issues and relaunch as Mk2 version in an appropriate time frame. How things are currently going they will be in a constant state of catch up, which cannot be good for them or their customers. Just my thoughts as an analog Leica M fan and user. Â andy For me: my 1ds2 had (still has) these issues (freezing, shutter freezing in the middle of shooting, exposure inconsistensies...), but I feel that they (japanese engeniers at Canon) are doing the best job that can be done. When you buy a 5D, that is maybe less so. Â That is what I payed for two years ago, and that camera made me enough money to live nice, pay itself off, and to buy an M8. Â I think people at Leica are doing the best that man can do at this point, some of this issues will be a joke to solve in 20 Years. (think the shutter beig able to expose ALL speeds 1-1/1000 at same consistency was done only by hasselblad and leica some 15-20 years ago.) Â Â Nex week I am paying a deposit for a M8 body and two lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrc Posted January 20, 2007 Share #46 Â Posted January 20, 2007 You know, from the description of events, it sounds like there must be a bad mechanical connection somewhere. It's not possible for the power-users (like the LCD) to continue functioning if the connection is broken, so it's not being broken. I suspect that the problem is very simple, and mechanical, which doesn't necessarily mean that it will be easy to fix (in the sense that it might not be easy to get at.) Â One of the more worrying things is the battery -- I've got a lot of digital cameras, and compared to others, where the contacts are out in the open and may be a couple of millimeters across, this battery has *delicate* looking connections; quite small and hard to see. That would suggest to me that the associated wiring is also quite small and delicate. Is it possible that a voltage surge (maybe caused by static electricity) is enough to damage some of the connections behind these contacts? Â I like my M8 as much as anybody, but they *did* make some odd design decisions, like this unusual battery. Why not use something common and generic and widely tested? The Canon G7 has a battery very close to the size of the M8, and in comparison, it seems very simple, straight-forward and robust in design. Â JC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotomiguel Posted January 20, 2007 Share #47 Â Posted January 20, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) i had a similar problem but with mine the shutter wouldn't fire and no led in the viewfinder. menu and set were fine. i turned the camera off but it remained on. finally i took the battery out and put it back in and everything was fine. mine is pre-fix ver 1.09. everything has been fine since but when it goes to solms evntually I will mention the failure....b My M8 works fine, but that happened to me tree times with the same result. Could be posible that this happens when shooting in the other way around. Let me explain. The camera looking at the floor or in other strange position. I cross my fingers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted January 20, 2007 Share #48 Â Posted January 20, 2007 I know some people are suspecting the problem may be mechanical, or the connection between the camera and battery. And for all I know, it could be any of those things. Â But if you think of Sean's description, the camera was on a tripod, so it is unlikely the battery connection would change. I don't know if he touched any control that might have had a poor connection but if he didn't, then it seems unlikely that a control connection would be at fault. And if the LCD stayed on, power was probably ok. Â Again, I'd really be suspicious of static. A lot of electronics are sensitive to static, and perhaps Leica didn't plan or test for this. (For instance, any time you install something inside a computer you are supposed to be strapped to the chasis to avoid static.) Now that it is winter, static becomes more common so maybe that is why we are seeing these failures now. With my 1Ds some screens stayed powered up after the static discharge too. It looked like the camera was on, but it wouldn't work again until I reset it by pulling the battery. The M8 scenario strikes me as very similar, but perhaps is more serious in its outcome. Â I think it would be wise to inquire to Leica about what they think of static running through the camera. If any circuits have been damaged by this, they should know by now. Â With the M8, I have a wait and see attitude at this point. As a professional, I want very reliable equipment, but have to be realistic too. Anything can and will break on the job. I need to have backups of all equipment, so I take 3 bodies, 2 laptops, at least 9 monolights, 2 tripods, etc. on most assignments. I often shoot tethered and after about 3 years of use, I developed a problem with my main laptop. It is very re-assuring to the client to see the assistant, calmly remove one computer and substitute another so I could continue with minimal delay. I bought a new laptop right after that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted January 20, 2007 Share #49 Â Posted January 20, 2007 Statistically this is indeed an extremely high failure-rate: although some have said that this represents few failures from many thousands of sold cameras, in fact the sample we're discussing here is the (relatively) few contributors to this forum. Â I'm confident that v2 is gonna be a lot more solid - but it looks like it might take a while before we're there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanosu Posted January 20, 2007 Share #50  Posted January 20, 2007 Statistically this is indeed an extremely high failure-rate: although some have said that this represents few failures from many thousands of sold cameras, in fact the sample we're discussing here is the (relatively) few contributors to this forum. I'm confident that v2 is gonna be a lot more solid - but it looks like it might take a while before we're there.  I agree. I think that the number of forum members with M8s is of the order of a hundred (few hundred?). Nearly everyone has experienced a camera lock-up and a higher than expected number of people have the worse problem when they can not bring the camera back up after a hang-up – I have not been counting but perhaps this number is of the order of ten? That would mean a failure rate of nearly 5% to10% as far as this particular problem is cincerned. This is a significant failure rate.  Furrukh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted January 20, 2007 Author Share #51 Â Posted January 20, 2007 There aren't enough M8 owners reporting on this forum to give us a reliable sampling. I'd caution against anyone drawing any kind of statistical conclusions. Â Whatever the percentage may be, however, the cause of this problem needs to be found and fixed and I expect that to be exactly what Leica does. I'll be talking with them next week and I imagine others have contacted them as well. Â In all fairness, I've been using the M8 professionally since September and this is the first problem that has actually stopped me from using the camera. Otherwise, it's been quite reliable. Â Cheers, Â Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 20, 2007 Share #52 Â Posted January 20, 2007 In theory, the camera should form a Faraday cage - a continuously conductive shell which prevents static charge entering the interior of the camera. It's the same principle which saves your life when lightning strikes an airplane. Â My tests today have shown that the electrical conductivity between the externally exposed metal parts is not perfect. Whether this is sufficient to cause these failures is open to question but the recommendation has to be that if you are using the camera in an environment prone to static, you ground yourself regularly while using the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcbjr Posted January 20, 2007 Share #53  Posted January 20, 2007 In theory, the camera should form a Faraday cage - a continuously conductive shell which prevents static charge entering the interior of the camera. It's the same principle which saves your life when lightning strikes an airplane. My tests today have shown that the electrical conductivity between the externally exposed metal parts is not perfect. Whether this is sufficient to cause these failures is open to question but the recommendation has to be that if you are using the camera in an environment prone to static, you ground yourself regularly while using the camera.  i just received the latest letter from the ceo offering to send me a pair of rubber gloves when they ship my ir filters, and asking me to register my glove size online at the end of february.  john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drjon Posted January 20, 2007 Share #54  Posted January 20, 2007 In theory, the camera should form a Faraday cage - a continuously conductive shell which prevents static charge entering the interior of the camera. It's the same principle which saves your life when lightning strikes an airplane. My tests today have shown that the electrical conductivity between the externally exposed metal parts is not perfect. Whether this is sufficient to cause these failures is open to question but the recommendation has to be that if you are using the camera in an environment prone to static, you ground yourself regularly while using the camera.  My sympathies to those whose M8s have died temporarily. A metal aeroplane is not a faraday cage; it is the "skin effect" which protects you (but not the plane) - the current density greater on the surface than inside. Lightning striking the plane can fry it's electronics. If you can use your mobile phone inside a plane or anything else you are not in a faraday cage.  The M8 is not a faraday cage and is unlikely to be so; actually it is more like a metal sandwich with its top and bottom metal plates which we love; in this respect it is a quite different design from a DSLR. I don't know but I suspect that its main asics are located quite near the surface. Almost certainly the problems reported (not the shutter issue) are because a static charge has found the easiest path to earth through some of the interior electronics and not just the case. Difficult to see how Leica can solve this as encasing the key asics inside a mesh sheild is likely to impractical given the space they have to work with.  Grounding the M8 case using the metal tether supplied with the 1.25 magnifier when it is inside on a tripod may be good practice; occassionally grounding yourself first before touching the camera another option - leather soles are nicer anyway. Aren't the idiosyncracies of the M8 what we love the most? Reminds me of my expensive British sports car. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike prevette Posted January 21, 2007 Share #55 Â Posted January 21, 2007 It must be hard for them, It's almost impossible not to compare this camera to the reliability of it's predecessors. Even though the predecessors are on the end of almost 80 years worth of development and engineering. This is a new, very ambitious camera from a company with very little experience in the field. A company that is emerging from a very dark period of management. A company that was handled as a fashion accessory, by a fashion consortium for the last 10 years. A company with a large shadow, but a very small stance. It sucks, and if you don't like it don't buy it. I hope the money they got from my purchase will help them stay together a little longer. Â _mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drjon Posted January 21, 2007 Share #56  Posted January 21, 2007 It must be hard for them, It's almost impossible not to compare this camera to the reliability of it's predecessors. Even though the predecessors are on the end of almost 80 years worth of development and engineering. This is a new, very ambitious camera from a company with very little experience in the field. A company that is emerging from a very dark period of management. A company that was handled as a fashion accessory, by a fashion consortium for the last 10 years. A company with a large shadow, but a very small stance. It sucks, and if you don't like it don't buy it. I hope the money they got from my purchase will help them stay together a little longer. _mike  Exactly. I think they will be around for a while yet. It will take a lot more than the birth pangs of the digital M to bring this old and revered engineering company down. Afterall, my family, my dogs and my Leicas are what makes life worth living - but not necessarily in that order! They have to survive otherwise we really will go after them. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted January 21, 2007 Author Share #57  Posted January 21, 2007 My sympathies to those whose M8s have died temporarily. A metal aeroplane is not a faraday cage; it is the "skin effect" which protects you (but not the plane) - the current density greater on the surface than inside. Lightning striking the plane can fry it's electronics. If you can use your mobile phone inside a plane or anything else you are not in a faraday cage. The M8 is not a faraday cage and is unlikely to be so; actually it is more like a metal sandwich with its top and bottom metal plates which we love; in this respect it is a quite different design from a DSLR. I don't know but I suspect that its main asics are located quite near the surface. Almost certainly the problems reported (not the shutter issue) are because a static charge has found the easiest path to earth through some of the interior electronics and not just the case. Difficult to see how Leica can solve this as encasing the key asics inside a mesh sheild is likely to impractical given the space they have to work with.  Grounding the M8 case using the metal tether supplied with the 1.25 magnifier when it is inside on a tripod may be good practice; occassionally grounding yourself first before touching the camera another option - leather soles are nicer anyway. Aren't the idiosyncracies of the M8 what we love the most? Reminds me of my expensive British sports car.  I keep thinking MGB too but it's really not like Lucas at all. Thanks for the interesting post.  Cheers,  Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted January 21, 2007 Author Share #58  Posted January 21, 2007 It must be hard for them, It's almost impossible not to compare this camera to the reliability of it's predecessors. Even though the predecessors are on the end of almost 80 years worth of development and engineering. This is a new, very ambitious camera from a company with very little experience in the field. _mike  That's a very good point. Up until just recently, Leica really had not been a computer company. Now, in some respects, they must be.  Cheers,  Sean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drjon Posted January 21, 2007 Share #59  Posted January 21, 2007 I keep thinking MGB too but it's really not like Lucas at all. Thanks for the interesting post.  Cheers,  Sean  MGB - no I'm not that brave. Try DB9! Hope your M8 gets fixed soon. Kind regards. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley Posted January 21, 2007 Share #60 Â Posted January 21, 2007 a faraday cage would be an additional shielding inside the camera some computers come from suppliers this way too, those for MoD use these machines have a pervasive bright shiny metal skin within the box, some not much thicker than heavy foil i beleive metal gause cages have also been tried with some success avoiding rubber soled footwear is probably recommendable too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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