Constable Posted January 20, 2011 Share #41 Posted January 20, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks Marc That was what I guessed. (Edit) I have just realised I can get three lenses into the Billingham - equally low profile. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Hi Constable, Take a look here Digilloyd's S2 focus field test.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
carstenw Posted January 20, 2011 Share #42 Posted January 20, 2011 I understand the point about the navigation Carsten ... however, you can customize it to bring up most used functions. The other thing is that you have to get used to one wheel rather than two, The manual shutter speeds are the old fashioned dial ... but I re-adjusted to that pretty quickly. I meant more chimping than menu navigation. Zooming in on some area to look at it closer. I found the one button up-down, one button left-right, switch to zoom system to be quite cumbersome. An A900-style joystick would have fixed that. The rest I could get used to, I think, including the unusual menus. Thanks for the detailed answer. Seems like a hell of a camera. I hope that Leica is successful with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Posted January 20, 2011 Share #43 Posted January 20, 2011 Carsten You are correct that it is unfamiliar .. But it is very easy to get used to. Not a real issue. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plevyadophy Posted January 24, 2011 Share #44 Posted January 24, 2011 I meant more chimping than menu navigation. Zooming in on some area to look at it closer. I found the one button up-down, one button left-right, switch to zoom system to be quite cumbersome. An A900-style joystick would have fixed that. The rest I could get used to, I think, including the unusual menus. Thanks for the detailed answer. Seems like a hell of a camera. I hope that Leica is successful with it. Yes, I do agree with you. I think Leica has taken minimalism a little too far with the S2 (and I was reading a review where the reviewer said pretty much the same thing). Funny thing is, I too thought that a joystick would have been ideal, even an additioal Up-down-left-right cursor pad would have improved things greatly. I think with either one of these things the S2 ergonomics would have been perfect (well actually, for me they would also have to place all four soft keys to the right of the screen so that one can operate everything with just the right thumb). In any event I regard the S2 as one of the top five DSLRs for ergonomics. Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 24, 2011 Share #45 Posted January 24, 2011 Yes, I do agree with you. I think Leica has taken minimalism a little too far with the S2 (and I was reading a review where the reviewer said pretty much the same thing). Funny thing is, I too thought that a joystick would have been ideal, even an additioal Up-down-left-right cursor pad would have improved things greatly. I think with either one of these things the S2 ergonomics would have been perfect (well actually, for me they would also have to place all four soft keys to the right of the screen so that one can operate everything with just the right thumb). In any event I regard the S2 as one of the top five DSLRs for ergonomics. Regards, I only have experienced the S2 for 4 days but must say that I much prefer the "litle to minimalistic approach to the overloaded u.i. of some other cameras. Personally I would maybe have added 1 or 2 more buttona (exp comp and af-mode-selection) but other than that you have 3+1 which I would use as ISO, WB, metering and exp comp. I loved the simple user interface. The main problem I have with the S2 is the price of the body. Still my stomach (yes) fights with my brain (no because of price) regarding the S2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plevyadophy Posted January 24, 2011 Share #46 Posted January 24, 2011 I only have experienced the S2 for 4 days but must say that I much prefer the "litle to minimalistic approach to the overloaded u.i. of some other cameras.Personally I would maybe have added 1 or 2 more buttona (exp comp and af-mode-selection) but other than that you have 3+1 which I would use as ISO, WB, metering and exp comp. I loved the simple user interface. The main problem I have with the S2 is the price of the body. Still my stomach (yes) fights with my brain (no because of price) regarding the S2. Yeah, this S2 does cause a certain amount of battlign with one's self. Generally, speaking I am anti the S2 because for the money I think it should be lot better (e.g better LCD, dust removal system, and a top plate LCD that is actually readable in daylight). However, the camera is just so damn disgustingly beautiful and nice in other respects that I can't help drooling whenever I look at one. My take on the medium format cams out there is: My wallet and my head says Pentax 645D (by miles the best featured medium format camera out there) My business head says Hasselblad (by far the best system out there, and by system I mean range of lenses and accessories as well as software/apps available, and web and telephone support, as well as dedicated Hasselbald studio in the UK for the use of Hassy owners; the studio is so big that you can drive a minibus into it (literally, given that it has a dropped kerb outside and roll-up shutters) My heart tells Leica S2, well actually Leica S2 Mk II or Mk III to add some of the refinements it needs e.g. dust removal (this camera is so wonderful to hold and to look at, with lenses that give superb quality images). As for minimalism, yours is the third different suggestion for extra buttons. But basically, all three of us seem to think it's lacking just one or two, three at most, extra buttons to make it perfect. I hope they do add one or two buttons to the cam in the next model, as I do think they have gone too far with the minimalist approach, such that the rear jog wheel is doing too many duties. However, even in its current state I regard it is as WAAAAAY better than a Nikon D3 which I absolutely hate in terms of ergonomics (it's littered with buttons, with some in idiotic positions). Regards, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted January 25, 2011 Share #47 Posted January 25, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) The S2 is most certainly a dose of "The Agony and the Ecstasy". I never mulled over the purchase of a camera this much in my life. Handling it for a small time is one thing, but having a demo for days is another ... it is really tough to send it back ... the S2 is just so seductively beautiful and wonderful in hand. In the end it was worth it to me to get to the lenses. The top LCD seems okay to me ... Leica did change that already. The rear LCD seems okay also ... not as good as the new Phase One backs with 1.5 meg retina type LCDs announced yesterday, but better than any other MFD camera before it. Always room for improvement ... but I didn't find any of those things to be a deal breaker. I'd also urge Leica to allow retrofitting new LCDs should they become available in future in order to support their buyers investment is such an expensive camera. As to more buttons etc. ... not sure that is needed as opposed to new firmware that allows customized short cuts using existing buttons. The camera is young, and what is already there can be reconfigured with new firmware. Hasselblad did exactly that without changing any of the ergonomics ... and those changes retro'ed back to other H cameras. For example, the stop down button on the face of the S2 camera could be assigned a user selected function. On my Hasselblads, they changed the firmware to allow that, and I assigned the stop down button on the grip face to fire a manual WB shot. Press that button and the cameras fires and sets the WB instantly ... no menu steps. Fast setting of ISO, Manual WB, and exposure comp is really all I need or want ... and I'm just getting familiar with the S2 controls, so I'm sure I'll get faster at it with time using the custom settings. -Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 25, 2011 Share #48 Posted January 25, 2011 The S2 is most certainly a dose of "The Agony and the Ecstasy". I never mulled over the purchase of a camera this much in my life. Handling it for a small time is one thing, but having a demo for days is another ... it is really tough to send it back ... the S2 is just so seductively beautiful and wonderful in hand. In the end it was worth it to me to get to the lenses. The top LCD seems okay to me ... Leica did change that already. The rear LCD seems okay also ... not as good as the new Phase One backs with 1.5 meg retina type LCDs announced yesterday, but better than any other MFD camera before it. Always room for improvement ... but I didn't find any of those things to be a deal breaker. I'd also urge Leica to allow retrofitting new LCDs should they become available in future in order to support their buyers investment is such an expensive camera. As to more buttons etc. ... not sure that is needed as opposed to new firmware that allows customized short cuts using existing buttons. The camera is young, and what is already there can be reconfigured with new firmware. Hasselblad did exactly that without changing any of the ergonomics ... and those changes retro'ed back to other H cameras. For example, the stop down button on the face of the S2 camera could be assigned a user selected function. On my Hasselblads, they changed the firmware to allow that, and I assigned the stop down button on the grip face to fire a manual WB shot. Press that button and the cameras fires and sets the WB instantly ... no menu steps. Fast setting of ISO, Manual WB, and exposure comp is really all I need or want ... and I'm just getting familiar with the S2 controls, so I'm sure I'll get faster at it with time using the custom settings. -Marc MArc, I am pretty sure that you can customize the stop down button of the S2 allready. I also see it like you that the small things which might nor be perfect yet are not things which bother me. The only problem I still have is to justify that massive price tag for the camera (I can live with prices for the lenses). Also as a private user I have to pay 19% VAT in Germany! Lets see if or how long I can resist. By the way-do you believe the cristal glass is soo strong that one will never ever get a scratch? I am also debating myself if the P-Model is worth it or not (dont need 24 hour replacement but 2 years guarante are still nice)Does the cristalglass have any (negativ) effect on color of the display? Cheers, Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted January 25, 2011 Share #49 Posted January 25, 2011 MArc,I am pretty sure that you can customize the stop down button of the S2 allready. I also see it like you that the small things which might nor be perfect yet are not things which bother me. The only problem I still have is to justify that massive price tag for the camera (I can live with prices for the lenses). Also as a private user I have to pay 19% VAT in Germany! Lets see if or how long I can resist. By the way-do you believe the cristal glass is soo strong that one will never ever get a scratch? I am also debating myself if the P-Model is worth it or not (dont need 24 hour replacement but 2 years guarante are still nice)Does the cristalglass have any (negativ) effect on color of the display? Cheers, Tom Yes Tom, you can customize the buttons ... but it still requires accessing a menu. I will investigate the customization of the stop down-button to see if a useful choice is included. Thanks! Can't say if there is any difference in the LCD color, since I don't have an S2 to compare. No clue whether the Sapphire LCD will ever get marred, but if it is like similar watch crystals, I doubt it will scratch. The S2P offers the crystal LCD, a 90 day replacement guarantee (anything goes wrong, the camera is replaced), 24 hour camera loaner if service is required after the 90 days with Leica paying for shipping, a one time maintenance CLA, free shutter replacement (focal plane or central) even after 100,000 shots, 30% off any non-covered repairs, and 2 years service. The S2 with the 2 year premium service package may be a better choice if you don't care about the Sapphire Crystal LCD, 24 hour loaner, or CLA/Shutter replacement service. I also noted that you can buy the extended service at a later date before the standard factory service runs out ... extending the warranty an extra year from the original purchase date. The good thing is that the warranties are transferrable, which they are not from Hasselblad! -Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptomsu Posted January 25, 2011 Share #50 Posted January 25, 2011 Yeah, this S2 does cause a certain amount of battlign with one's self. Generally, speaking I am anti the S2 because for the money I think it should be lot better (e.g better LCD, dust removal system, and a top plate LCD that is actually readable in daylight). However, the camera is just so damn disgustingly beautiful and nice in other respects that I can't help drooling whenever I look at one. My take on the medium format cams out there is: My wallet and my head says Pentax 645D (by miles the best featured medium format camera out there) My business head says Hasselblad (by far the best system out there, and by system I mean range of lenses and accessories as well as software/apps available, and web and telephone support, as well as dedicated Hasselbald studio in the UK for the use of Hassy owners; the studio is so big that you can drive a minibus into it (literally, given that it has a dropped kerb outside and roll-up shutters) My heart tells Leica S2, well actually Leica S2 Mk II or Mk III to add some of the refinements it needs e.g. dust removal (this camera is so wonderful to hold and to look at, with lenses that give superb quality images). As for minimalism, yours is the third different suggestion for extra buttons. But basically, all three of us seem to think it's lacking just one or two, three at most, extra buttons to make it perfect. I hope they do add one or two buttons to the cam in the next model, as I do think they have gone too far with the minimalist approach, such that the rear jog wheel is doing too many duties. However, even in its current state I regard it is as WAAAAAY better than a Nikon D3 which I absolutely hate in terms of ergonomics (it's littered with buttons, with some in idiotic positions). Regards, My wallet says Pentax 645 The technical guy in me says Phase (80MB) The practical guy in me says Hasselblad - far the best overall system and price My heart says S2 - the most sexy and attractive camera and would me allow shooting like I am actually used to (from my long year R experience) My brain says - stay ith your H3D39, which is far more than you need Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 25, 2011 Share #51 Posted January 25, 2011 My wallet says Pentax 645 The technical guy in me says Phase (80MB) The practical guy in me says Hasselblad - far the best overall system and price My heart says S2 - the most sexy and attractive camera and would me allow shooting like I am actually used to (from my long year R experience) My brain says - stay ith your H3D39, which is far more than you need the question is: what does your wife say ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted January 25, 2011 Share #52 Posted January 25, 2011 The real question is what choice will deliver the images as you see them, as you feel them, as you want them to be? What would work for you now, and deliver what you want well into the future? The other part of that question is how affected we are by opinions around us verses our own? -Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 26, 2011 Share #53 Posted January 26, 2011 The real question is what choice will deliver the images as you see them, as you feel them, as you want them to be? What would work for you now, and deliver what you want well into the future? The other part of that question is how affected we are by opinions around us verses our own? -Marc I totally agree. I do know that the images from my Nikon often look somewhat artificial to my taste, and the ones from the Hy6/Sinar back (I had) and the M9 are more realistic (for my taste). The S2 ones even beat the M9 ones regarding detail/sharpness and also color is a little less tricky than the M9 sometimes. The A900 (I have only tried it for a little while) seems closest to that look but I am not sure how I like the handling (24-70 seems somewhat front heavy, mirror slap/sound is such a loud klack, user interface is ok but not great IMO and I am not sure yet about the noise behaviour even at lower ISO). Now the S2 seems to have the best user interface (for my taste) with its simplicity. Color and Tonality seems great out of the Camera Raw with out much post processing. Sharpness and Detail is incredible. You dont have to worry about the optical quality (like I would when buying a Pentax today, everybody writes something different regarding Penbtax on the 645D) In comparison to the M9 you get the ability to shoot Tele, you get AF and more consistent color. (and more bulk too) The thing I am afraid off is that (for whatever reason) I have become such a perfectionist regarding what to expect technilly/optically from my equipment that I might focus much too much on technical image quality. I know that good equipment doesnt heart creativity (I even feel that a camera like the S2 could help because it feels intuitive to me, and with "just" 3 lenses it is a somewhat "basic" approach) Can I see the difference? I dont know. Overall I feel yes, but on another day I shoot a comparison of a scene with M9, A900 and S2, print it (A3 size) and have to admit that I only saw a very minor differences. I guess it also depends also a lot on the light/colors and scene/subject one shots if we can see a difference or not. I just feel a little strange and snobby if I say a 22k S2 is the only camera which really does what I want. (However I somewhat feel like thats the case today) Speically as an amateur snapshot family and vacation photographer. Sorry for the long answer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 26, 2011 Share #54 Posted January 26, 2011 The real question is what choice will deliver the images as you see them, as you feel them, as you want them to be? What would work for you now, and deliver what you want well into the future? The other part of that question is how affected we are by opinions around us verses our own? -Marc regarding the second question: I am affected by opinions around me but still try to make my own opinion. Thats why I wanted to test the S2 myself and the "bad" thing was that the one I tested was better than what I had expected from opinions I read in the internet (specially regarding AF accurancy). Still it helps to hear from experienced photographers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted January 27, 2011 Share #55 Posted January 27, 2011 regarding the second question: I am affected by opinions around me but still try to make my own opinion. Thats why I wanted to test the S2 myself and the "bad" thing was that the one I tested was better than what I had expected from opinions I read in the internet (specially regarding AF accuracy).Still it helps to hear from experienced photographers. I agree. At the very least it alerts you as to what to look for and evaluate. Which is what I said repeatedly when going through the evaluative process myself. I reported my issues not as a condemnation of the S2, but more as an alert to be aware of when trying or buying the camera. I also was referring to the frenzy that surrounds every new development in digital technology. Between the marketing hype and sudden dissatisfaction that people feel with their own gear, the peer pressure has become absolutely insane and a sure path to bankruptcy ... or a diet of beens and franks ... LOL! In a very odd way, the expensive S2 is a relief from that ever advancing, never ending upgrade route beyond actual need that many MFD users are on ... which, BTW often cost as much as or more than the S2 body. While not loving the S lens costs, I feel less trepidation about paying for such excellent optics that I doubt will be improved upon much in future because they were designed from the ground up for digital applications. -Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Googaliser Posted January 31, 2011 Share #56 Posted January 31, 2011 never ending upgrade route Whilst the S2 may be a long-term keeper - surely your H4D60 is starting to feel the heat from this ! Although the PhaseOne version with retina & multi-touch screen (swipe to view scuccessive pictures) sounds amazing. Sorry to take this off-topic - but the point is that for those of us running several systems - the upgrade itch will always pop-up somewhere else !! M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwilliamsphotography Posted January 31, 2011 Share #57 Posted January 31, 2011 Whilst the S2 may be a long-term keeper - surely your H4D60 is starting to feel the heat from this ! Although the PhaseOne version with retina & multi-touch screen (swipe to view successive pictures) sounds amazing. Sorry to take this off-topic - but the point is that for those of us running several systems - the upgrade itch will always pop-up somewhere else !! M My folks didn't raise any dummies ... I cancelled my H4D/60. In studio it wasn't any better than my current H2F/CF39 Multi-Shot ... bigger isn't always better ... in fact at the pixel level, the 60 isn't quite as good. I do a lot of fabrics and outlined product shots, and Multi-Shot images continue to be better for this type work. If it ain't broke, why fix it? I also sold my H4D/40 ... the S2 is as good or better in terms of IQ, and more suited to my mobile shooting needs ... which rarely require more than the S2 already delivers. Plus the delicious lenses are unmatched by anyone. Despite all the ballyhoo and marketing hoopla, I am completely underwhelmed by what I see coming from the mega resolution backs so far. Kinda lifeless and sterile looking to my eye. That opinion may change as those backs get out there into more and more capable hands ... OR it may not ... and it may be that it has all gone to far for the systems connected to them (sort of like a 426 Hemi in a Hugo) ... so it's a good time to kick back, enjoy the exquisite S2, and wait to see what happens in future as the big boys battle it out : -) Meanwhile my H2F/CF39 MultiShot keeps earning its keep, and is a wonder to use and see in action. Waiting for the 4 shot to resolve itself on a 30" screen is kinda like watching a print develop in the darkroom ... LOL! -Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Rains Posted February 9, 2011 Share #58 Posted February 9, 2011 The past few posts have been quite interesting regarding the buying 'thought process'. For me, the sensors are all wonderful (Phase/Hassy/S2 etc). The new Phase IQs look cool too. However, it's the camera that floats my boat. The Phase camera is appalling: clunky, unreliable and with poor handling. Same with the Hassy, but more reliable and slightly better ergonomics. Phase backs need to be on Alpas or Arcas to get the most out of them IMHO. The S2 is a brilliant camera. I love working with it. The lenses are utterly gorgeous too. The sensor is more than adequate - nothing stellar but at least as good as the opposition. So considering the camera, the lenses and the sensor as a whole, the S2 kicks butt on two out of three. That's good enough for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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