The announcement that did not happen M10 at 10-10-10

[bybrett]

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What's this "client driven" business and what company in its right mind lets customers designs its products?

 

And by the way, Frank. Do you have any relevant optical or mechanical engineering or photographic experience?

 

Firmware update content is quite often "client driven".

[Guest BigSplash]

Your previous posts would suggest that you have very little photographic experience, which some might argue to be a prerequisit for camera design.

Feel free to send me anything via PM, but I will re-post it. I say what I have to say publicly.

 

RedBaron I have used Leica (M4) since about 1972 and have travelled the world with it and just a few lenses. However today I have a collection of 12 Leica lenses and have also gone digital. Frankly I do feel that after 40 years of using Leicas I am slowly getting the hang of photography.

 

Yyou clearly suggest I am somehow inadequate at photography or have little experience . Could you please let me know why you say this. I really am always ready to learn and improve. However if this is just another throw away remark aimed at discrediting me without any substance I am disappointed

 

You say: "Feel free to send me anything via PM,"

This is not possible as you have chosen to have no PM service operating, and this has been the case for many months!

 

Please explain how you on one hand appear open, fair with nothing to hide....and then pull a trick like that! If it is deliberate it is unethical, If it is a simple mistake please excuse me and correct your PM.

[bill]

Please stop feeding the Troll, gentlemen. He's getting over-excited and will disturb the others.

[redbaron]

Sorry Bill.

[Guest BigSplash]

Please stop feeding the Troll, gentlemen. He's getting over-excited and will disturb the others.

 

Bill I am the OP and certainly not a Troll. Your behavior is that of a troll. You say that you will not particiapte several pages back, then rejoin with a view to disrupt, and even say then that you are planning to stay tuned in.

 

Every thread you post: adds absolutely no value, is aimed at a personal level, and is disruptive towards the OP topic. This is Troll behavior at worst and juvenile at best.

 

Please either add value or stay out of this debate.

 

I am reporting your behavior to the moderator who has already requested less of this behavior in the hope that he can make you respond in a way that a Forum of this type can expect from its members.

[earleygallery]

James I think you are joking as your suggestion is not what I said or feel. Please note:

• While AF would be desirable it would mean adding a motor for focussing and then probably a second motor for aperture control. The lens would be much larger and the connections between lens and camera body would be more complicated although that is achievable (via the 6 bit coding lugs for example).
  

Bottom line the size of the lens would be significanly larger and this I think would detract from the M concept significantly. For that reason I would not want AF.

 

• Focus Verification is a totally different deal however and it seems could be achieved without a major R&D effort. Please note:
  
  • The lens lug that drives the rangefinder mechanism is already super accurate so no problem there.
    
  • The need would be for a way of sensing the lug movement and using this with a laser distance meter,
    
  • Leica has presumably considerable knowhow within their sports optics division to build accurate laser rangefinders and perhaps even has access to some chips although I do not know this
    

  [*]To be clear I am NOT sugesting that the rangefinder part is dropped. I am suggesting Focus verification as an additional tool that would be especially useful with a Noctilux at full aperture at night.

Today I find my Noctilux already difficult enough to use at full aperture, hopefully focus verification would be a welcome addittion and an aid.

 

 

James you mention mass production which I did not say. I mentioned the use of robotics, and building a camera that is easier to assemble and adjust without hiring and then training even more technicians. There is a difference. What I am suggesting:

• Would allow production to respond to demand which has not been the case for M9 it would seem
  
• Would yield a more reliable camera and would address QC issues that we read about here
  
• Would provide a more rugged camera as today there are so many linkages etc for the shutter (see Mark Norton photos)
  

I think the above benefits are good things, but maybe you disagree. If these things happened costs would be lower and that either means Leica make more money or they drop the price and drive up more demand, which is also a good thing I think. That though is certainly NOT mass production as seen by Canon or Nikon or Panasonic..I would not recommend Leica to go there.

 

You also mention changing the M mount plus adapter to accommodate AF lenses I guess. I would believe that would increase the camera size and make compatibility with older lenses questionable. I would not think that was a good idea.

 

Frank,

 

I refer to an earlier post where you stated that;

 

1. A new camera M10...that I would want to buy and commercially could keep the production lines pushed to keep up with an ever growing backlog.
   
2. Significant improvements to the QC of new cameras leaving the factory, and a full out attack on improving the reliability / ruggedness of the camera such that it again becomes the camera of choice for professionals in war zones as it was in the Vietnam era.
   
3. Accessories that support the appeal to photographers in different market segments: Close Up work with bellows (I shall not use the V word as EVIL, Live view should do the same job), leather cases for travelling executives, a mini tripod that has a small ball (not the large one that Leica has in its catalogue today), etc etc.
   
4. A cost reduced entry model that may use plastic moulding for the case and be built in volume under subcontract rather than hand assembled at Solms
   

1. Your new M10 camera involves significant changes in the design of the existing M digital camera to incorporate all of the revisions you propose.

 

2. You are proposing a rugged camera which would obviously have to include weather sealing etc. and which would also require a complete redesign of the body and lenses as stated by Leica representatives at the recent LUF question and answer sessions at Photokina - see separate thread on this subject. Making such design alterations would open the door to include some/all of the other changes you desire and would also involve significant R&D expense, as well as time, trial and error, user feedback etc etc. What are your estimations for the timeframe for such development work?

 

3. Addition of live view would open the door to include auto focus lenses (see above) which would also negate the need for a delicate and technically moribund optical rangefinder mechanism. A laser rangefinder could possibly be incorporated for precise manual focussing as an alternative to AF and to allow use of legacy M lenses as well as a new range of weather sealed AF lenses.

 

4. To acheive your cost reductions, technological advancements, volume production, plastic body etc etc would entail moving from the current production process to a more automated 'mass production' process which Leica could learn from their partners at Panasonic and Sanyo, and possibly outsource production to those companies with final assembly and QC checks carried out in Germany in a similar business model to the X1 camera.

 

To assist with use of Noctilux lenses in low light if Leica adopt your laser rangefinder design they could also include 'night vision' technology to make the M digital more useful in extreme conditions. Leica cameras were often used by the military in the past and this is an important market need which they must address. They have already produced a khaki M8 model which would suggest a desire to target the military/hunting customers. Additional cases would be required, camo webbing style cases for M system cameras and lenses, khaki lens hoods, camera straps, hand grips etc. and I would propose a khaki 'red' dot instead.

[scsambrook]

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Seems some people on here enjoy poking Bigsplash with various kinds of sticks and then complain and throw things at him when he shows any response . . . we had kids like that at my school fifty years ago.

 

As for what Leica ought or ought not to - they can spend their money how they want and we can all keep on airing our views on what they ought to do and playing armchair CEO to our heart's content. It's a forum, isn't it?

 

All I want is camera that will take my M lenses and will calculate the subject distance precisely for me - I don't care if it uses a laser or a measuring stick as long as it gives me the right answer every time. My eyesight's not good now and I can't reliably get those images lined up anymore, despite the help of my optician. The military traded in their optical rangefinders for lasers years ago, maybe someone should tell Leica Camera, eh?

 

And I don't care whether it's made in Germany, Japan, China, the Falkland Islands or Tasmania by human beings or robots, so long as I can actually get one for less than the price of used car and which keeps on working properly.

[Guest BigSplash]

Frank,

 

I refer to an earlier post where you stated that;

 

1. A new camera M10...that I would want to buy and commercially could keep the production lines pushed to keep up with an ever growing backlog.
   
2. Significant improvements to the QC of new cameras leaving the factory, and a full out attack on improving the reliability / ruggedness of the camera such that it again becomes the camera of choice for professionals in war zones as it was in the Vietnam era.
   
3. Accessories that support the appeal to photographers in different market segments: Close Up work with bellows (I shall not use the V word as EVIL, Live view should do the same job), leather cases for travelling executives, a mini tripod that has a small ball (not the large one that Leica has in its catalogue today), etc etc.
   
4. A cost reduced entry model that may use plastic moulding for the case and be built in volume under subcontract rather than hand assembled at Solms
   

James I remain consistent with the above ...no change at all. The M10 I would like to buy is the one outlined as the OP here....with some give and take on things suggested here by Brett for example

1. Your new M10 camera involves significant changes in the design of the existing M digital camera to incorporate all of the revisions you propose. Please be more specific as I do not see it that way. ?

• If you look at the shutter kit (shutter, cocking motor, interface linkages, shutter release mechanism) I would say there is room for improvements that would give better performance, reliability and require less adjustment during manufacture (see Mark Norton photos as a start point) .
  
  • This is not a 20 man design team effort ...in my view it is an effort of maybe 2-3 technicians using CAD tools.
    

  [*]If you look at taking the Maestro chip from S2 this should be relatively straightforward as we were told that S2 was actually also the technology driver at Leica and that the experience would move to the M camera

2. You are proposing a rugged camera which would obviously have to include weather sealing etc. Ideally yes weather proofing is desirable but:

• I do not have this on my list and if that is a show stopper leave it to M11.
  
• I actually believe that fully weather proofing would require "O" rings at the M mount
  
  • That is for me at least unacceptable as defacto it would mean that old M lenses would not be useable on a new M10 with "O" ring M mount.
    
  • The camera would most likely grow in size, be bulkier and again not acceptable from my viewpoint
    

.......and which would also require a complete redesign of the body and lenses as stated by Leica representatives at the recent LUF question and answer sessions at Photokina - see separate thread on this subject.

• I think there point from memory was about weather proofing and nothing else.
  
  • Forget weatherproofing
    
  • All other items such as inclusion of Maestro chip set, increased memory buffer size and revised shutter kit could be fitted into the existing space as the new stuff is smaller as I understand it.
    

Making such design alterations would open the door to include some/all of the other changes you desire and would also involve significant R&D expense, as well as time, trial and error, user feedback etc etc. What are your estimations for the timeframe for such development work?

• I actually think about 18 months to 24 months and I believe they should have started in 1Qtr to 2Qtr 2009 as the M9 was nearing the end of its development cycle then. .....selected photographers we now know were field trialing it from June 2009 I believe.
  
• Yes if I am correct they should have M10 at a very advanced stage in my view:
  
  • When they release it will be a marketing decision which I fully understand.
    
  • I could believe that they will want to maximise M9 sales and clear backlog before any announcement
    
  • I would hope that they use any available time to refine the M10 and focus / address any learning with respect to production difficulties they may have had with M9
    

3. Addition of live view would open the door to include auto focus lenses (see above) which would also negate the need for a delicate and technically moribund optical rangefinder mechanism.

• Why is the rangefinder technically moribund I do not agree. It has many advantages.
  
• I suspect we do not want AF as this will require motors in the lenses and that means a significant size increase. I personally like M cameras as they are smaller than DSLR ..
  
• Leica seem to make ever smaller, shorter lenses ...great. We do not in my view now want to go the other way for AF
  

A laser rangefinder could possibly be incorporated for precise manual focussing as an alternative to AF and to allow use of legacy M lenses as well as a new range of weather sealed AF lenses. I think focus verification to compliment the rangefinder would be very welcome and it is doable:

 

4. To acheive your cost reductions, technological advancements, volume production, plastic body etc etc would entail moving from the current production process to a more automated 'mass production' process which Leica could learn from their partners at Panasonic and Sanyo, and possibly outsource production to those companies with final assembly and QC checks carried out in Germany in a similar business model to the X1 camera.

• I think you are correct for a mass volume PLASTIC body camera and this could be a way forward as you say like the X1
  
• However I do not agree that cost reduction, technological advancement, the use of automated production techniques and design for ease of production has no place within a M camera ...it is crucial to the long term prosperity of Leica in my view
  

To assist with use of Noctilux lenses in low light if Leica adopt your laser rangefinder design they could also include 'night vision' technology to make the M digital more useful in extreme conditions. Leica cameras were often used by the military in the past and this is an important market need which they must address. They have already produced a khaki M8 model which would suggest a desire to target the military/hunting customers. Additional cases would be required, camo webbing style cases for M system cameras and lenses, khaki lens hoods, camera straps, hand grips etc. and I would propose a khaki 'red' dot instead.

 

James I think your last paragraph is designed to wind me up as you forgot GPS and HD video as must have items.

[Guest BigSplash]

Firmware update content is quite often "client driven".

 

I agree completely.

 

In fact most successful companies go out of their way to find out what clients like and do not like. I recently had a briefing on how Google in collaboration with various companies are analysing buying habits and are getting to know more about cient needs, market trends and so on...this stuff is regarded as gold dust by companies that plan to grow rapidly.

 

This forum I have always believed has a great opportunity to identify needs that Leica can use as they refine their product roadmap and I really hope that people on the Forum engage in a meaningful debate.

[Guest hC-Bp]

Seems some people on here enjoy poking Bigsplash with various kinds of sticks and then complain and throw things at him when he shows any response . . . we had kids like that at my school fifty years ago. .. . . .

 

+1

 

Unsavoury and unnecessary. One wonders at the arrid and vacuous lives some people must lead to have the time and inclination for such sport.

 

Andy, my admiration to you in your role as moderator. Sadly your call for "Gentlemen" to desist in their playground antics found none present.

 

Frank, I admit to finding your postings somewhat incomprehensible at times, but this is no reason to mud-sling. Suggest you equally desist from fuelling the troll-ettes.

 

Silence is a powerful weapon.

 

best,

Phil

[pico]

Your final point that Leica may find itself again in a situation with limited cash if (and when) the M9 plus new lens bonanza slows is an issue. That is my point in this posting. They need to have exciting new products ready to launch when sales inevitably drop off.

 

They have exciting products under the Panasonic line. Panasonic is far more equipped to indulge in disruptive technology. Leica is specialized a niche player.

 

Of course if you take a longer term view one would hope they have four profitable legs to their financial model...M camera, X1 camera, S2 camera , Sports Optics

 

And medical optics, and scientific optics. But the camera division has to stand on its own.

[stunsworth]

And medical optics, and scientific optics. But the camera division has to stand on its own.

 

That's a diffrent company.

[pico]

I agree completely.

 

In fact most successful companies go out of their way to find out what clients like and do not like. I recently had a briefing on how Google in collaboration with various companies are analysing buying habits and are getting to know more about cient needs, market trends and so on...this stuff is regarded as gold dust by companies that plan to grow rapidly.

 

Google has more money than god and can take all kinds of risks, and besides their fundamental business is based upon disruptive technology. Leica's camera division is based upon a sustaining model, with the Panasonic company to handle disruption. I'd say that is an excellent plan.

 

If you would like to see the tragic error of 'listening to clients', look to the very well documented disc drive industry. Listening to clients put several big companies under.

[pico]

That's a diffrent company.

 

I thought they were under the same corporate umbrella. Sorry.

[Guest BigSplash]

+1

Unsavoury and unnecessary. One wonders at the arrid and vacuous lives some people must lead to have the time and inclination for such sport.

 

Andy, my admiration to you in your role as moderator. Sadly your call for "Gentlemen" to desist in their playground antics found none present.

 

Frank, I admit to finding your postings somewhat incomprehensible at times, but this is no reason to mud-sling. Suggest you equally desist from fuelling the troll-ettes.

 

Silence is a powerful weapon.

 

best,

Phil

 

Phil I appreciate your support with respect to the playground antics. You ask me to desist from fuelling the trolls but please note:

1. In the past I have tried the silence weapon. I have ignored these same idiots that come with two liners, are personally attacking me, and are generally disruptive, I have complained to moderators who have done nothing so far. I have abusive PM's that I ignore.
   
2. From about May this year until recently I gave up and hardly joined the forum although I watched the same people behaving in the same way...so silence does not work.
   
3. Lately I have been asked specific questions by these trolls and I have replied...
   

For example:

• I have been asked my qualifications and experience (This has now been asked twice which I have given twice but have had no reply!), Is it normal to ask someone's qualifications in a forum?
  
• I was accused of a lack of photographic expertise to a point that the suggestion was that I did not know what a photographer needs. (I have 40 years experience of using various Leicas and so I asked why is it suggested that I am deficient in photographic experience, what do I need to learn ..no reply!) ,
  
• I was told that I could send a PM ...........when I tried I saw that this feature had been blocked by the same recipient who suggested this etc etc
  

This type of behavior is in my view simply not acceptable for the following reasons:

1. I am the OP and believe passionately and have some knowledge about Leica...some people have wanted as I want a serious debate as Forums do, and this is continuously and needlessly taken off track by the trolls.
   
2. The trolls have entered into a juvenile wrecking expedition since many months. They inject two liners, that add no value and are not even humorous except perhaps to their own narrow clique.... I ask why do the moderators allow this?
   
3. Is this how a forum dedicated to discussing Leica products and surrounding issues should behave? I think not.
   

Finally why should I keep quiet and allow posting after posting to be wrecked by these people? That is my position and I have referred this to the moderators.

[bybrett]

It is possible to report posts, it says -

 

Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.

 

I also believe that it should extend to "acting in a manner which may bring the Forum into disrepute".

 

There are many influential people who are allowed to read this stuff if moderation is weak.

[Guest BigSplash]

Google has more money than god and can take all kinds of risks, and besides their fundamental business is based upon disruptive technology. Leica's camera division is based upon a sustaining model, with the Panasonic company to handle disruption. I'd say that is an excellent plan.

 

If you would like to see the tragic error of 'listening to clients', look to the very well documented disc drive industry. Listening to clients put several big companies under.

I am unaware of the HDD industry other than it is about to get killed by Silicon Drives, maybe that is your point. I am not aware of client feedback for a HDD other than people want bigger ones each year.

 

Leica has in the past taken a gradual slowly slowly approach to new technology and it failed badly. They came very late into the reflex market, then TTL metering, they had the original AF patents but did nothing with them, and finally they were very late into the digital camera market. Hopefully they have learned from these mistakes.

 

I see Leica as a technology company with leadership in Optics. They have a superb R&D team, lots of IPR, and in my view they need to use these strengths to push the company forward and exploit technology against client driven needs.....otherwise they are in danger of going the way of the slide rule, sextant, and mechanical lathe.

 

Panasonic I see as a volume manufacturing house that can make low cost badged cameras, while giving Leica some insight into what is going on in Japan. I do not see Panasonic as being a fountain of technology that Leica can somehow tap into...they have partners such as Kodak, Jenoptic, Adobe, Fujitsu etc for that. Leica do a great job in my view using their technology partners with their own R&D and building their own IPR.

[Guest BigSplash]

It is possible to report posts, it says -

 

Note: This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.

 

I also believe that it should extend to "acting in a manner which may bring the Forum into disrepute".

 

There are many influential people who are allowed to read this stuff if moderation is weak.

I agree and have reported this to the moderator using the report feature and directly via a PM. I hope that other people feel the same way as this behavior by the trolls needs to be stopped

[mjh]

this stuff is regarded as gold dust by companies that plan to grow rapidly.

Quite obviously Leica doesn’t plan to grow rapidly. They seem to prefer growing slowly but steadily.

 

Also Leica will be aware of the fact that they will have to develop and market new products eventually, even when they don’t seem to agree with you on the timeframe.

 

Frankly I have some difficulty understanding how a man of your calibre would waste his precious time preaching to customers who have no say in the direction the company will take.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Guest BigSplash]

Quite obviously Leica doesn’t plan to grow rapidly. They seem to prefer growing slowly but steadily.

 

Also Leica will be aware of the fact that they will have to develop and market new products eventually, even when they don’t seem to agree with you on the timeframe.

 

Frankly I have some difficulty understanding how a man of your calibre would waste his precious time preaching to customers who have no say in the direction the company will take.

Michael thanks for the compliment....I think!

 

What I see is that you have no interest in giving an input to this thread. This surprises me as I know from your previous posts you know the sector very well, including the technology and you know Leica very well also.

As for growing "rapidly" maybe you are right. I think steady solid growth year to year is certainly preferable compared to having a single product line bringing in the bulk of the cash and having difficulty shipping that product.

Unfortunately in the real world it is a fact that explosive growth does happen when you get it right (ipod, iphone, itunes, and M9). My view is:

• New exciting products such as M9 do drive strong customer demand
  
• Eventually that demand goes away as happened with M8, which drove Leica into several quarters of losses.
  

I guess the trick is to anticipate what next and develop it (as happened with M9) and is presumably well underway with M10 as I think you imply and are probably correct.

 

It is also a need for any company:

• To be prepared to meet production volumes which did not happen with M9, and has still not happened with new lenses
  
• To properly forecast the demand. By Leica's own admission at the Q&A they shipped in 9 months what was planned for the complete production cycle which presumably is 2 to 3 years.......
  
  • I would suggest that lessons can be learned and guaging client demand is just one of those lessons.
    
  • Imagine the difficulty of meeting highly variable demand using the current design within the current production methodology based on a labour intensive approach......I ask is it possible to build a Leica with a Rolex mentality and not that of Patek Philippe?
    

Maybe it is time to sit at the "Alster Pavillion" and give it some thought over a nice coffee and cake...then I for one would love to hear your inputs.