andybarton Posted October 12, 2010 Share #21 Posted October 12, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most decent camera companies make lenses with wide apertures? "Fuzzy backgrounds" aren't a Leica USP. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 12, 2010 Posted October 12, 2010 Hi andybarton, Take a look here The announcement that did not happen M10 at 10-10-10. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
giordano Posted October 12, 2010 Share #22 Posted October 12, 2010 Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most decent camera companies make lenses with wide apertures? "Fuzzy backgrounds" aren't a Leica USP. No, but Frank did also mention "full aperture corner to corner sharpness", which Leica do care more about than most other lens manufacturers. On the other hand I can't remember ever seeing a photograph that evidenced or needed both corner to corner sharpness and razor thin depth of field. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted October 12, 2010 Share #23 Posted October 12, 2010 The lenses that are missing I feel are: blah blah The current M lens range is very extensive. If you cannot manage with the lenses currently available I suggest that you think about taking up another hobby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted October 12, 2010 Share #24 Posted October 12, 2010 Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most decent camera companies make lenses with wide apertures? "Fuzzy backgrounds" aren't a Leica USP. Leica has a certain kind of fuzziness which is rather pleasant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted October 12, 2010 Share #25 Posted October 12, 2010 Brett you are right to smile. The 35mm is one that really shines ...I guess that you have one, I do not yet but I have used it and it is something special due to the high contrast I guess. I have not yet tried for any long period of time the 50mm .... I guess that this is another exceptional lens however and on a M8 it becomes a 70mm so a great portrait lens I suppose. I have been watching the BBC TV series "Spooks" and they seem to like to shoot many scenes with a sharp focus subject (portrait) and a fuzzy background which in my view is what in still photography Leica is so good at with the Summilux. Possibly the Leica lenses are well suited to this new fashion, or revival of the old. For me this is a real strength of Leica lenses ...at full aperture corner to corner to sharpness, and with a fuzzy background. Frank, I don't have the new 35mm Summilux but I have tested more than a few. I agree with many of the points in your post except that in the meantime I am enjoying shooting M9. As with all transitions M7-M8 M8-M9 it takes a while to warm to the new model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted October 12, 2010 Share #26 Posted October 12, 2010 Letting Frank anywhere near their R&D would be a real disaster! Strong words ..... I have actually turned around seven high tech companies and continue to be engaged in that type of activity, so I think your remark frankly is ridiculous, and baseless. I assume that you are trying to inject humour . Iit is a pity that you do not focus the subject of this posting and actually add value, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted October 12, 2010 Share #27 Posted October 12, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) No, but Frank did also mention "full aperture corner to corner sharpness", which Leica do care more about than most other lens manufacturers. On the other hand I can't remember ever seeing a photograph that evidenced or needed both corner to corner sharpness and razor thin depth of field. Surely it is a feature that with a single Leica lens such as 35mm lux you can take: one image with a fuzzy background (wide aperture) and then a second image and different subject with corner to corner sharpness (small aperture). Why do you or would anyone want both features in the same photograph?. Frankly although you can achieve a fuzzy background with other competing lenses there seems to my eyes to be a subtle difference with the results using Leica lenses wide open (old and new generaton lenses by the way). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted October 12, 2010 Share #28 Posted October 12, 2010 On the other hand I can't remember ever seeing a photograph that evidenced or needed both corner to corner sharpness and razor thin depth of field. Why, obviously the Brick Wall. That's yet another announcement that did not happen at 10/10/10: the adequate solution for the M10 capable Leica Brick Wall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted October 12, 2010 Share #29 Posted October 12, 2010 No, but Frank did also mention "full aperture corner to corner sharpness", which Leica do care more about than most other lens manufacturers. On the other hand I can't remember ever seeing a photograph that evidenced or needed both corner to corner sharpness and razor thin depth of field. I have taken advantage of edge to edge sharpness and minimum depth of field many times. Leica lenses give you the opportunity... it's up to the photographer what you do with that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted October 12, 2010 Share #30 Posted October 12, 2010 The current M lens range is very extensive. If you cannot manage with the lenses currently available I suggest that you think about taking up another hobby. Why the attack? I agree with you that the Leica lenses available today is a mind blowing range of primes (plus tri elmar) that is very generous. Did I say otherwise? Add to that the renowned quality of construction and the images that are possible compared to competing products it is mind blowing. Then think of the several decades of M lens designs that remain superb still today. I recently spent several hours and a dinner with Peter Karbe (Head of Optics at Leica) and was in awe of this humble guy who is passionate about his designs. In my book the man is a genius and he with his team seems to keep bringing out leading edge lenses while he acknowledges the qualities of great old Leica lenses . Time however does not stand still and people like Zeis & Voigtlander were the only suppliers of super wide angle 15mm lenses ...now that Leica has a 16mm (WATE) and an 18mm in the portfolio there is a reasonbale alternative if you want such a product. Personally I have a 21mm that on my M film cameras provides dramatic effect that I dont quite get with the M8 due to the cropping (ie its 28mm), so rather than buy a M9.........! Although I have a portfolio of 12 lenses that are superb they are mostly older models that have a special character of their own that I like. That said the latest Summilux ASPH lenses offer much more contrast and seem to give a crsiper image and I am tempted to compliment rather than resplace what I already have. Finally I have started using my 30 year old 35mm and 50mm Summicrons again on the M8 and I am awe struck at the quality of this old glass. OK I know that people have written about the Summicron design over the decades but seeing it with your own M8 in a digital world is really good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted October 12, 2010 Share #31 Posted October 12, 2010 Why, obviously the Brick Wall. That's yet another announcement that did not happen at 10/10/10: the adequate solution for the M10 capable Leica Brick Wall. A brick wall would need edge to edge sharpness and no curvature of vertical or horizontal lines, plus excellent contrast and colour.....not sure where an ability to show a fuzzi background is relevant however. Still I am sure if you have a passion for taking images of a brick wall Leica lenses are already very able...hopefully you as a photographer are also up to the job! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted October 12, 2010 Share #32 Posted October 12, 2010 There are always wish lists appearing on this forum for new lenses. Wishes and needs are different things. I can manage but I have wishes. And needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted October 12, 2010 Share #33 Posted October 12, 2010 A brick wall would need edge to edge sharpness and no curvature of vertical or horizontal lines, plus excellent contrast and colour.....not sure where an ability to show a fuzzi background is relevant however. Still I am sure if you have a passion for taking images of a brick wall Leica lenses are already very able...hopefully you as a photographer are also up to the job! Brick wall with window or hole in the middle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted October 12, 2010 Share #34 Posted October 12, 2010 .........I remain however disappointed that we had no exciting announcement for M users. ......... As part of the Q&A session, Herr Schopf emphasised that Leica Camera currently needs some time for financial recovery. Regarding the Digital solution for R lenses we were further told that Leica Camera is looking into a mirrorless solution, but the precise specifications have not been decided (are still wide open). That POSSIBLE FUTURE design is presumed to accept M lenses with some system of adaption for the discontinued R glass. Note that they also said that: In the future, announcements will only be made when a product is deliverable. Frank I think that you need to put up 30 million EURO for R&D or launch a takeover bid. I took note of all points above. One can read many diffferent things into what was said as you have done with respect to R lenses and mirrorless solutions...they stated that they are looking at various options as they are doing with sensors...which commits nothing, and does not exactly even outline any kind of roadmap. The comment that " Herr Schopf emphasised that Leica Camera currently needs some time for financial recovery." is more worrying. If you look at the reported financial results of 2009/2010 you will see that Dr Kaufmann injected cash in 2009 Leica lost money in two quarters before rebounding significantly due to the M9 bonanza, which one would hope is still continuing today and hopefully for many future quarters. What now for the future..... Does Dr Kaufmann want some cash back? Is 30M€uros for S2 sufficient to realise the S2 future plans with more lenses (also mentioned), and shutters internal to the lens (also mentioned), plus an eventual need perhaps for production investment that may or may not be in the 30M€uros. Is more money forthcoming from Dr Kaufmann or is the cash cow M9 and its lenses supposed to pay for Leica's future? I have no idea about any of these issues which I imagine is rightly a closely guarded on a need to know basis within Leica. We do know that Herr Spiller cut costs significantly, invested in R&D throughout, and reorganised his management team while making M9 and new lenses happen...so why now the comment about needing time for financial recovery? If they are building a war chest for a rainy day, or saving up for the new factory for life after M9 I am surprised they did not say so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
therefromhere Posted October 12, 2010 Share #35 Posted October 12, 2010 We seem to be in sync on M8. ...glad I am not alone! OK the new lenses as usual have had their production issues but hopefully these will get sorted. I have used the lenses that you mention and I was amased that the 35mm in particular is such a useful and brilliant lens with excellent contrast. The lenses that are missing I feel are: 75mm ASPH Summilux. I have the old one and it is a super lens that I use at full aperture very frequently for portrait stuff. I would believe that the same thing as an ASPH would be a welcome addittion to the lineup. A fast super wide angle lens of say 15mm would be great also. OK I know that the WATE provides 16mm (f4) and there is an 18mm (f4) , plus Zeiss and Voigtlander make super wide angle without the 6bit coding. Something faster than f4 using ASPH technology that Leica has would be pushing the limits further. BigSplash, you're certainly not alone on the M8. Sure it could be improved on, but it does the trick quite nicely! Re: Lenses, I think you're very right. I have the 15mm Voigtlander and do miss the encoding. I've played around with "faking" the 6-bit code and haven't had much luck. However, I've gotten used to the distortions. Having said that, if Leica came out with one, I'd probably be very interested in trying it out. I'd love to try out an old 75mm Summilux, but haven't seen one around! Honestly, I've been searching for the 35 and 50 for so long that I've completely forgotten about how nice a 75mm can be. I tried out the new Voigtlander 75mm at Photokina and liked it but thought the colors were a little flat - but for the price, it certainly does have it's place! Until then, I'll keep my name on the waiting list at Leica stores-worldwide in the hope that the gods at Solms bless us with a Summilux or two... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 12, 2010 Share #36 Posted October 12, 2010 ...The comment that " Herr Schopf emphasised that Leica Camera currently needs some time for financial recovery." is more worrying. .... I won't be able to take away your worries. I just didn't hear or didn't understand this remark. What I understood, was that Leica needed some time to consolidate the present line of products. That's a difference. If the remark was made as I understood it, I can only say it's true and answers all questions about the 10-10-10. Where is the law which states that announcements for new products must only be made at the Photokina and new products themselves must only be revealed there? Leica showed that it worked well to do so just in between of two Photokinas. Other producers do so as well. Sticking to certain dates may be nice on a calendar; it hasn't anything to do with reality. P.S.: I looked up the quotation in the English translation of the meeting's summary. There the words are: "Mr. Schopf emphasized that currently Leica needs time to recover economically." That means something different than "...needs some tima for financial recovery." In the context it clearly was meant as "to stabilize and increase the production of the present products in order to fulfill customers' demands for them quicker than now rather than announcing new products" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BigSplash Posted October 12, 2010 Share #37 Posted October 12, 2010 I won't be able to take away your worries. I just didn't hear or didn't understand this remark. What I understood, was that Leica needed some time to consolidate the present line of products. That's a difference. If the remark was made as I understood it, I can only say it's true and answers all questions about the 10-10-10. Where is the law which states that announcements for new products must only be made at the Photokina and new products themselves must only be revealed there? Leica showed that it worked well to do so just in between of two Photokinas. Other producers do so as well. Sticking to certain dates may be nice on a calendar; it hasn't anything to do with reality. P.S.: I looked up the quotation in the English translation of the meeting's summary. There the words are: "Mr. Schopf emphasized that currently Leica needs time to recover economically." That means something different than "...needs some tima for financial recovery." In the context it clearly was meant as "to stabilize and increase the production of the present products in order to fulfill customers' demands for them quicker than now rather than announcing new products" Uliwer you are telling us that "financial recovery" does not mean what I eluded to it actually means : "Stabilise and increase production" ..to fulfill customer demands" "Leica needed some time to consolidate the present line of products" If you are correct that is great news and much needed at Leica, it makes sense in my view. So why did they not state this and be more specific? The follow up question is why did they not identify the specific steps that they plan to take to achieve a stabilised increased production without the QC issues we keep hearing about. I would love to have heard something along the lines of: The M9 mechanisms were being made more production friendly, rugged and therefore more reliable. The hand adjustments that are needed today (and have a tendency to go out of callibration) will be addressed as part of the development. M9 production will increase by x% but without adding extra people due to more robotics and better design. The focus will be on prodcution, reliability improvement, less adjusting and less building the thing by armies of highly skilled technicians ...Rolex mentality rather than Patek Philippe! All of this will be the basis of M cameras going forward and will be encorporated in an eventual next generation M10 Instead we heard what I may have misunderstood and you have interpreted as above. Surely that interpretation is not exactly supported by what was said? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted October 12, 2010 Share #38 Posted October 12, 2010 There is no need to quote posts immediately above the one that you're writing. If you do quote, it's rarely necessary to quote the whole post. There is a reply button provided. Making an M with a robot isn't possible. Changing the guts would make it a different camera, not an M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted October 12, 2010 Share #39 Posted October 12, 2010 Uliwer you are telling us that "financial recovery" does not mean what I eluded to it actually means :... blah blah blah...Instead we heard what I may have misunderstood and you have interpreted as above. Surely that interpretation is not exactly supported by what was said? Now I understand... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted October 12, 2010 Share #40 Posted October 12, 2010 Instead we heard what I may have misunderstood and you have interpreted as above. Surely that interpretation is not exactly supported by what was said? I didn't take a tape-recorder to the meeting, nor did I take notes of what was exactly said. Did you? You may call what I wrote interpretation, I don't mind. Its interpretation of what I heard and understood when I attended the meeting. It is not based on distorted quotations and hypothesis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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