should i hold out for the M10?

[Bo_Lorentzen]

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M9 alternative - M6 $1200 + Nikon coolscan $2000 = full frame body and digital scanner for about $3000...

 

I have that solution and yet love every second of the time I have been using the M9.

 

.

[SJP]

"The World is divided into those who get on with life and those who hold back in the hope of something better just around the next corner.

Hope is not a strategy - it is an excuse.

Get on with it."

that is usually very good advice, but in the case of the m8, it would have been awful advice.

Strongly disagree, the M8 is a great camera with very few problems from my point of view. I would happily recommend it to anyone & with the current 2nd hand prices it is a very good deal. If you have a high iso and full frame fixation then the M9 is essential but for 99.8% of the time the M8 is very^2 close.

[Manolo Laguillo]

What's your question? You are doubting because of what?

 

Not enough image quality?

Not enough performance?

 

If you really need those missing things, wait.

 

But if you have the suspicion that those things are not that important, go ahead, buy the M9, and enjoy it... life is too short!

 

Sometimes we are unable to live happily because with don't accept what we do have, and think too much on what we don't...

[Guest BigSplash]

I think the answer is obvious. If money is not an issue buy an M9 today (£5000) and then get the M10 when it becomes one day available. If you want to impress buy the M9 titanium at a price that makes most people's eyes water

 

If you want to take great images using M glass buy a recent M8 with a passport guarantee secondhand or new. (£2000 or less) ...you will save a bunch of money and can send it to Solms before the guarantee runs out to fix anything that may be an issue ....then you get another one year guarantee from Solms, and have a fully checked camera. With the £3000 saving buy one or more lenses.

 

If Overgaard is correct and the M10 is 3 to 4 years away then that camera is very late in my opinion. However since they have not announced or even eluded to an M10 at Photokina I guess it is some way off because presumably it will be a significant next step and worth the wait.

[luigi bertolotti]

Looking for a rational answer, there is an important statement you made : M8 was NOT "up to your expectations" : why, in detail ?

1) If it was a problem of value for money, BigSpalsh suggestion can have a sense.

2) If you didn't like the cropped sensor (was my doubt too... I finally bought a M8, and am a lot happy with it), M9 is for you : buy !

3) If you have intimate doubts about digital / sensor etc... wait and enjoy your Leicas : film will be availble for long time, and scanners too...

[lennycam]

Looking for a rational answer, there is an important statement you made : M8 was NOT "up to your expectations" : why, in detail ?

1) If it was a problem of value for money, BigSpalsh suggestion can have a sense.

2) If you didn't like the cropped sensor (was my doubt too... I finally bought a M8, and am a lot happy with it), M9 is for you : buy !

3) If you have intimate doubts about digital / sensor etc... wait and enjoy your Leicas : film will be availble for long time, and scanners too...

 

i have a lot of issues with the m8, i would never get one. here are some that come to mind:

 

1) bad in anything other than low isos

2)cropped frame

3)frame lines did not match the actual photo

4)having to use ir filters on the lenses

5)NOISY!, not very leica like.

6)the shutter would press back on you finger when rewinding, very annoying

7)not enough image quality for the money

 

the m9 corrected most of those issues, but there are a couple of reasons for me to wait:

 

1) i could wish for better high iso performance, i shoot in available light, and often in very low light. i do have the 50/1.0, but i don't always want to shoot at 1.0

2) i am still hoping for some kind of video option. i really don't want to carry a second camera in my bag, and i am a cameraman, so moving pictures is how i make a living. everyone else is doing it, i hope leica decides to join the party. like at said, it helps sell cameras.

3) i like the number 10. i really like the number 10. and if i buy the m9 now i will probably have it forever like my other leicas, so i rather wait for number 10.

 

I am writing this at 10 am on 10/10/10. tell me that is not a sign!!

 

i can wait, i have digital cameras (canon 5d mk2 and 1d mk4), so i am covered. but i did want a m digital.

i just want to get the right one for me.

[bill]

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2) i am still hoping for some kind of video option. i really don't want to carry a second camera in my bag, and i am a cameraman, so moving pictures is how i make a living. everyone else is doing it, i hope leica decides to join the party. like at said, it helps sell cameras.

 

...not to me

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Ecaton]

i have a lot of issues with the m8, i would never get one. here are some that come to mind:

 

 

 

 

I am writing this at 10 am on 10/10/10. tell me that is not a sign!!

 

i just want to get the right one for me.

 

Wasn't the M9 launched on 09/09/2009;)?

[Arash]

From a historical point of view, i see M9 as a M3, one thing that is best for some generations to come, why? well because its the first full frame M, with a CCD, i personally prefer CCD images to CMOS, CCDs are more expensive, have higher noise in high iso's, but have a higher contrast, better color, better image.

 

And talking about M10:

Leica has 2 way to go for it:

 

1- To choose a CMOS, for cheaper price, lower noise and all, which then M9 will be better in my opinion (this way is unlikely)

2- To continue partnership with Kodak and choose a higher resolution CCD, which then, again, M9 will be better, because of having bigger size of pixels

 

There's a reason M9 is the best digital camera right now, making a better M10 will be a hard job for leica, i think its going to be the best digital camera at least for 5 years, reproducing something like M9 will be very hard

[janki]

Buy M9 now if you have the money. Who can say today that there will ever be an M10!

Quite many Leica users were so stupid that they were waiting for a Leica R10. I was one of them!

Take lessons from this affliction story!!

[SJP]

From a historical point of view, i see M9 as a M3

No the M8 is the M3, the M9 is the M2 - the M2 is better in almost all aspects but remains a development of the M3. The M8 is and will remain the first Leica digital rangefinder the M9 is an evolution of the M8. So the M8 is the classic design, not the M9.

[Arash]

Well M8 wasn't up to Leica standards, your incridible 35mm lens was a cheap 50 with it

 

Time will tell which one is M3 like, if there was a bet i would place my money on M9

[lennycam]

you say potato, i say TOMATO

 

the m8 was a tomato (and a rotten one at that) in my eyes. the m9 is back to potato, as all the previous Ms..

 

yes, i too waited for an R10. now i have converted all my lenses to canon/cine lenses (added leica-canon adapters, removed the aperture clicks, added focus gears, added 80mm front diameter adapters) but i did save one, my old trusty 80/1.4, on my R9 body, just in case they ever do decide to make an R10. i wish they would...

[Manolo Laguillo]

i have a lot of issues with the m8, i would never get one. here are some that come to mind:

 

1) bad in anything other than low isos

2)cropped frame

3)frame lines did not match the actual photo

4)having to use ir filters on the lenses

5)NOISY!, not very leica like.

6)the shutter would press back on you finger when rewinding, very annoying

7)not enough image quality for the money

 

the m9 corrected most of those issues, but there are a couple of reasons for me to wait:

 

1) i could wish for better high iso performance, i shoot in available light, and often in very low light. i do have the 50/1.0, but i don't always want to shoot at 1.0

2) i am still hoping for some kind of video option. i really don't want to carry a second camera in my bag, and i am a cameraman, so moving pictures is how i make a living. everyone else is doing it, i hope leica decides to join the party. like at said, it helps sell cameras.

3) i like the number 10. i really like the number 10. and if i buy the m9 now i will probably have it forever like my other leicas, so i rather wait for number 10.

 

I am writing this at 10 am on 10/10/10. tell me that is not a sign!!

 

i can wait, i have digital cameras (canon 5d mk2 and 1d mk4), so i am covered. but i did want a m digital.

i just want to get the right one for me.

 

 

there you are: you answered your question! But thank you, anyway, for sharing your doubts: it's been an interesting thread.

[Arash]

you say potato, i say TOMATO

 

the m8 was a tomato (and a rotten one at that) in my eyes. the m9 is back to potato, as all the previous Ms..

 

yes, i too waited for an R10. now i have converted all my lenses to canon/cine lenses (added leica-canon adapters, removed the aperture clicks, added focus gears, added 80mm front diameter adapters) but i did save one, my old trusty 80/1.4, on my R9 body, just in case they ever do decide to make an R10. i wish they would...

 

 

Me too, R collection of lenses is too much of a treasure to get forgotten, or get used via adapters on non-Leica bodies, all they need is M9's sensor, on a digital back designed for R9, since backs for R9 are changeable(still the only 35mm digital/analogue body)

 

Just a question, why did you remove the aperture clicks? For cine use, with follow focus? So it will change aperture while filming smoothly? I assume your setup involves a 5dmk2 probably

 

 

Update: just read your previous comment and saw that you actually have 5dmk2, but dont wait for a video capable M body, Kodak sensors are specialized for photography and dont have that much of high frame rate usually, as generally most of big CCDs, for making M10 video capable Leica should switch to Dalsa sensors, which doesn't have microlenses, and its sooo unlikely, also Leica wont do anything if its less than perfect for M series, having a highly compressed video format such as MTS or Mpeg is really un-Leica, and imagine if Leica wanted to make a Digital cinematography camera compatible with their new C series cine lenses, well ARRI alexa already exist, it wont be any different from that, and if they make it for M lenses, well M lenses have breathing and all other problems(though their aperture design is very Cine-like)

 

And with video war getting hot i dont think Leica will jump on it, Big names in this industry like Sony,Panavision(genesis),ARRI and the new comer RED are not easy to compete with, with photography centric collection of lenses

 

So i dont think either an M10 with video capability or a dedicated professional cine camera are on the way, i can assure you M series is dedicated to photo( but still its a very orgasmic thing to think about a video capable M body:))) )

[lennycam]

wow, Arash, you know your s__t!

 

i remove the aperture clicks because when you do a move that has an exposure change, if you try to change the iris you see jumps instead of a smooth transition. i used to shoot with a 5dmkii, but now i use a 1dmk4, because the 5d has an issue when you use external monitors and hit record (it goes to black for a few seconds and then it goes into sd on the external monitor)

 

thanks for the info re ccd vs cmos imagers. interesting.

 

i am not asking for leica to come up with an incredible video camera, i don't expect a dedicated video camera from them, just something similar to what canon is doing. i am not about to put away my video cameras, but i like that when i am traveling light, with my canon on my backpack, i am covered in case something really special happens in front of my eyes.

 

so it does not have to kick ass, but it would be nice to have.

 

leica is finally now making cine lenses for these new high end digital cameras. maybe that will wet their appetite.

[Arash]

wow, Arash, you know your s__t!

 

i remove the aperture clicks because when you do a move that has an exposure change, if you try to change the iris you see jumps instead of a smooth transition. i used to shoot with a 5dmkii, but now i use a 1dmk4, because the 5d has an issue when you use external monitors and hit record (it goes to black for a few seconds and then it goes into sd on the external monitor)

 

thanks for the info re ccd vs cmos imagers. interesting.

 

i am not asking for leica to come up with an incredible video camera, i don't expect a dedicated video camera from them, just something similar to what canon is doing. i am not about to put away my video cameras, but i like that when i am traveling light, with my canon on my backpack, i am covered in case something really special happens in front of my eyes.

 

so it does not have to kick ass, but it would be nice to have.

 

leica is finally now making cine lenses for these new high end digital cameras. maybe that will wet their appetite.

 

 

Well Canon and Nikon and other SLR makers have always been multipurpose cameras, Leica is not, they won’t adopt AF, too much to ask for Video:D

 

Also i mentioned their C series lenses in my post, if they get to make a PL mount cine camera they would not make anything special, it will be just like Alexa,F35 or Epic, Leica doesn't do something that other ones are doing

 

I have a friendly suggestion for you, Buy a Sony NEX 5 camera for carrying instead of the monstrous 1Dmk4, It has a APS-C sensor, barely smaller than 1D(1D has 1.3x crop, NEX 1.5x, bigger sensor than canon 1.6x for 60d)

 

The good thing about NEX 5 is that it has the smallest flange to sensor distance known to human race, so it will adopt any lens ever made for any camera! you won’t need to carry EF and M lenses in the same time, you just carry you leica lenses, and with a M(or R) to NEX adapter you use all of your leica lenses on the nex5

 

Its also cheap, very very vey small(you won’t notice its weight at all)

Has a high dynamic range in movie mode, low noise (comparable to 5dmk2)

Also a good HDMI out for monitoring, you can’t capture RAW 4:2:2 from HDMI since it has onscreen information, but you can’t do that either with canon

 

You will be blown away by picture and movie quality of NEX5 with your M(or R) lenses

[bill]

Well M8 wasn't up to Leica standards, your incridible 35mm lens was a cheap 50 with it

 

Time will tell which one is M3 like, if there was a bet i would place my money on M9

 

This is interesting...

 

I would argue that the M8 is the M3 and the M9 the M2 for the following reasons:

 

1. M3 came first, M2 improved upon it

2. M3 needed goggles for 35mm, M8 needed UV/IR filters for all lenses.

3. M3 viewfinder magnification at .91 was superseded by M2 at .72, which then was standard for the next 40-odd years.

 

In short, things were not right about the M3, that were largely put right with the M2. The M10 will be the real game-changer.

 

yes, I would call the M8 the M3 of it's generation. The difference is that the M3 was built to last...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[bocaburger]

M10 is 3-4-5 years in the future to judge from what was said by Leica at and around Photokina.

 

Judging from what was said by Leica at and around March 2009, the M9 was likewise in the indefinite future...which was what satisfied me to pay $1700 to upgrade my M8

 

My reason for getting an M9 now was that at the moment I and the world (economically and politically) are is still in good enough health for me to do the kind of traveling that makes a $7K camera justifiable to me. It's less tempis fugit than carpe diem.

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[Arash]

This is interesting...

I would argue that the M8 is the M3 and the M9 the M2 for the following reasons:

1. M3 came first, M2 improved upon it

2. M3 needed goggles for 35mm, M8 needed UV/IR filters for all lenses.

3. M3 viewfinder magnification at .91 was superseded by M2 at .72, which then was standard for the next 40-odd years.

In short, things were not right about the M3, that were largely put right with the M2. The M10 will be the real game-changer.

yes, I would call the M8 the M3 of it's generation. The difference is that the M3 was built to last...

Regards,

Bill

GAME CHANGER

That’s exactly why I say M9 is equal of M3 in digital age

M3 wasn’t first film camera that Leica made, but was a game change, so many things introduced for the first time

M9 again, not the first digital, actually 3rd after M8 and M8.2 but a game changer

Why?

First and only Full frame sensor in under 30mm flange to sensor distance in any digital camera ever

Sensor with micro-lenses

First and only Mirrorless digital 35mm camera ever with a full frame sensor

Ability to use most of analogue lenses without any distortion or vignetting

I would call M9 a game changer, something that neither Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic or any other one are not able to accomplish

I would call M3 a game changer too, you know for obvious reasons

M9 is not going to be absolute when M10 comes out, just like M3 wasn’t absolute after M2, but M2 is somehow forgotten now, just like M8