deirdre Posted November 9, 2010 Share #381 Posted November 9, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Most of my part in this thread is about the consideration to buy a Leica M to replace my X1. The 'start' of the process, the trail of the M8. And now I just shared my thoughts a little while later not having an M around to hold and admire. I don't have an X1, and with a Panasonic GF1, I wanted a camera that would give me double lens duty with a small size. Thus, an M series camera. I went to the Leica Akademie to get some hands on experience to see if that's what I really wanted. (It was.) There is a lot to say in favor of getting an M8/8.2 instead of a new M9. I thinking about this too. If anything it takes away a large part of the massive depreciation that inevitably comes with a new M9. I wasn't so much worried about the massive depreciation -- it doesn't seem to exist at the moment, looking at re-sale prices of existing M9s. I opted for a used M8 simply because I wanted it by a given date and I wasn't sure I could get an M9 in that window. Plus, I wanted to have money for lenses and, frankly, I need a new computer. Those taken together are about the cost of an M9. The M8 should arrive sometime today. I can't wait. Pity I hurt my knee yesterday. Might have to hobble into the yard to try it out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 Hi deirdre, Take a look here Should I take the M9 jump!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted November 9, 2010 Share #382 Posted November 9, 2010 (but yes I've ben thinking of it as a pocket alternative...but will it compete with the X1 in image-quality..?) Thorkil It should - Fuji has excellent sensors and lenses. I think it will become a serious X1 alternative - the more so because of the viewfinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorkilB Posted November 9, 2010 Share #383 Posted November 9, 2010 yes, Jaap, perhaps one should wait a bit for the X100, but they have to stand up early in the morning, to get the same charisma in the pictures as the X1, but we will see, and meanwhile we could hope for a M10 soon, so I could get a M9 for a dumping-price Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted November 9, 2010 Author Share #384 Posted November 9, 2010 The annoying thing with digital cameras is, there's always a camera to wait for... While looking good and promising, I'm not so sure the X100 will equal or better the X1 on IQ. With all its limitations the X1 has raised the bar pretty high here. The 24 Elmarit is specifically designed for the sensor in Solms and for a large part responsible for the excellent IQ. Like many others, Erwin Puts from the TAO of Leica has some valid criticism on the X1. But also high praise for the IQ as these few snippets from his X1 reviews show: "A simple resolution test reveals a big surprise. The CMOS sensor of the X1 has a pixel pitch of 5.5 micron and the CCD sensor of the M9 has a pixel pitch of 6.8 micron. The comparison pictures show that the X1 image is at least as good in terms of resolution, but better in terms of moire-effects. As I have demonstrated repeatedly, the M9 suffers from moire-effects." "Whatever the fine points, the X1 must be given very high marks for delivering images on the same level as the M9. Leica users who reflect on buying the X1 as an easy to use compact camera will get Leica like imagery." "The 24mm lens in the X1 is remarkably free from ghosting and veiling glare. In fact again it is often better than the M lenses on their bodies." "The imaging engine of the X1 (lens, sensor, processing) delivers impressive results that are close to and even equal to the image quality of the M9. This conclusion is based on a test where the parameters are identical." All I'm saying is, I think Fuji can easily improve upon the the X1s weak points and limitations. But I think they'll have a very tough job at matching - let alone improving - the IQ. If Fujis' small sensor products so far are anything to go by... hmm... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 9, 2010 Share #385 Posted November 9, 2010 Erwin is on slippery ice here - he neglects to mention the intrinsic differences between CCD and CMos and the possible use of an AA filter on the X1. As for sensors - size matters. The X1 should be compared to APS sensors, the small sensor Fuji cameras to equivalent Leica products, like their HS10 to the Leica V-lux2. That comparison is not neccesarily to Leica's advantage, I fear. The X1 is indeed excellent, but so it should be, for a point-and shoot of that price... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorkilB Posted November 9, 2010 Share #386 Posted November 9, 2010 I also read this from Irwin Putts some time ago. I don't know so much about sensors and so on. And perhaps judging from a good computer-screen is still just a bad thing. Even though it look as the X1 is a bit up to the M9 in the IQ, and seems to overdo the M8 although Richard done a good job adjusting his M8 pictures (?), (and yes I have my doubts about Fuji can compete in IQ here) but the limitations are still, 1)not wide enough(for me) 2) no manual focussing (just a meny) 3) shutter-lag 4) AF-pendling(?) in dim/dark light How do these things function for you Richard? you are setting the focus by meny?, takes a lot of time(?), you have to be patient? do you do hip-shots, or just very steady-holding pictures? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 9, 2010 Share #387 Posted November 9, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) All I'm saying is, I think Fuji can easily improve upon the the X1s weak points and limitations. But I think they'll have a very tough job at matching - let alone improving - the IQ. If Fujis' small sensor products so far are anything to go by... hmm... Only time will tell - early 2011 it is said. I hope for Leica that you are right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted November 9, 2010 Share #388 Posted November 9, 2010 Actually I admit I am a sucker for AF too, and its one reason why I havent pounced on the M9 which is what I'll do instantly if it were an option. I put it down to laziness or fear of eyestrain haha Having said that the first time I picked up the M8 I was able to do the RF very accurately and 99% of the shots in sharp focus. Ditto the M9. Rf is easy to use, albeit for me slower. Looking for distinguishing features to do the double image to coincide thingy can be tricky and takes experience. But its totally doable, not the ideal solution but I think I can live with it just to get those shots. I think Richard you got to really evaluate your priorities in terms of Image quality coz I think the M9 with a lux for example the X1 is no comparison, noise or not. And I believe you to be a sucker for IQ too, the M9 is a compelling option. Like the X1 compared to its competition you can always argue that it is worth it given its advantages. Totally same for theM9, the kind of IQ you get well I guess we all know. Also, you tried the M8. To me there is a world of difference between the two, unfortunately price included haha. I am talking about handling, loss of that clunky shutter in the M8 pissed me off the first few times (since the X1 is silent). I think you owe it to yourself to really try an M9. I feel its really not the same, reviews or not. There are marked improvements including IQ. I see this from the images I took. For one thing colors on the M8 can be really off but in the M9 they are vibrant , more accurate. The metering sucks though for me, maybe its user fault but then I use the X1 and the metering & AWB rarely fails me. With the M9 well you seen my posts with the pink hues all over. But I think it can be overcome. From the fact that you are willing to use non-AF zeiss primes for your DSLR I am sure you are a perfect candidate for the Ms. I am lazy compared to you instead of superb primes like the zeiss makro planars I'd rather forgo IQ in favor of convenience of AF Nikkor primes you know what I mean... Try the M9 Richard. I got a feeling you'd like it. They are certainly NOT the same, but a marked evolution. For high iso I think the X1 does a fair bit of processing. The M9 high iso files are "more raw" if there is such a term haha, and since you are a major proponent for only shooting in raw a bit of PP is all it needs..... My two cents. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted November 9, 2010 Author Share #389 Posted November 9, 2010 And perhaps judging from a good computer-screen is still just a bad thing.Even though it look as the X1 is a bit up to the M9 in the IQ, and seems to overdo the M8 although Richard done a good job adjusting his M8 pictures (?), (and yes I have my doubts about Fuji can compete in IQ here) but the limitations are still, 1)not wide enough(for me) 2) no manual focussing (just a meny) 3) shutter-lag 4) AF-pendling(?) in dim/dark light How do these things function for you Richard? you are setting the focus by meny?, takes a lot of time(?), you have to be patient? do you do hip-shots, or just very steady-holding pictures? Thorkil, When you have a good, not too old & accurately calibrated screen it's not a bad thing. Yes, the M8 files on average required more work in post than the X1 files do. I found the leeway for adjustments about the same. Contrary to the most heard complaint about the X1 I rarely have had problems with it. Honestly. No it's not as fast as the current MFT cams but it's fast enough. Really. It's just as fast or faster as 90% of the P&S cams out there. Usually less than a second. If I would randomly pick 5 different focus points in quick succession I'm 100% sure the X1 focuses faster than 9 out 10 M users can manually. I know many think/say different but I simply don't believe it... The only thing Leica must solve in a firmware update is that the X1 should remember the last manual settings. This would make zone focusing a lot more useful. That said, I really loved the M experience. Like no other camera I've ever tried. After the M8 the X1 simply isn't the same anymore. I can't deny it. And this has nothing to do with IQ. But I've also come to the conclusion that I don't want to shell out so much money for an M9 + a 35 Cron. So this morning I talked to my dealer and he might get a very nice s/h M8.2 in the coming week. Together with - for instance - a 28 Elmarit ASPH that I had on my trail M8 would be M photography at a totally different price level. One that I'll probably feel a lot more comfortable with... Richard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorkilB Posted November 9, 2010 Share #390 Posted November 9, 2010 Okay Richard, hopefully a wise, for for sure, not a wrong decision. Ok you put me back on track I think...that you say about the M's make me more certain that I should not invest in the fifth (or 6') P&S camera besides the 2 Hassy, the D3 etc. and the M6. Yes as I told back in time before, its only the M6 that make/made me smile when I'm shooting, and for years before I used it for everything, work, family, hollyday, when times were for easy and cheap 18x21 first class and wonderfull enlargetments by the dealer in inner Copenhagen. Those days are gone. The SWC also, give me a broad smile, but its for4 tripod messuring...and time goes + another camera for mesuring....bulk, bulk even though its nice sometimes.. I've got the 21 Elmarit, a 2/50 summicron (don't use..) and a 2/90 summicron (dont use), so the D3(only 5-6.000 shots) must go, the one hassy(nearly untouched) must go (not the SWC) and I must go for the M9...when I've got those lenses (but perhaps I should meanwhile try an NEX-3 + my 15Voigländer + the 21Elmarit....no, no, no...more expenses instead of saving for the M9) Looking forward to that we soon will see more nice M8 pictures from you Thorkil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Murray-White Posted November 9, 2010 Share #391 Posted November 9, 2010 I am mindful of the "range-a-finder" animations when I post this ;-) but here's a guy with a Pansonic GH1+ Voigtlander Nokton 0.95/25. Budget Leica? Voigtlander Nokton 25mm F0.95 Sample Street Photographs Photos Images I've seen many posts saying Panasonic's thrown a lot of effort into their newer version of this camera, mind you I don't think you get a 20 page thread Umming and Ahring over a Pany. Clive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorkilB Posted November 9, 2010 Share #392 Posted November 9, 2010 Hi Clive There is a lot of really good cameras out there, but I've been trying some cameras in my life, not a lot, but enough, read carefull about them all, but I'll guess they will all be just a station on the long and expensive road, and someday you have to stand still...and then take the jump ...to the best compromise of them all....or keep standing...untill jumping Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorkilB Posted November 9, 2010 Share #393 Posted November 9, 2010 ps one thing more clive...its right what Richard says, its not all about what the cameras is stricly capable to do Image-quality-wise, but also, and perhaps most of all, how much it is able to creap under your skin...and this is THE feeling that keeps you shooting unless you are a pro. I have had Nikon all my life, besides all the other stuff, but let me be frank, they never crept under my skin, just a tool, ok efective though, but no....no smiling just holding it, walking around with it, but an effective tool, but not a frienly one you feel connected with as I do with the M6... that is the difference I have to stick to...so ..m9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD700 Posted November 9, 2010 Share #394 Posted November 9, 2010 I am mindful of the "range-a-finder" animations when I post this ;-) but here's a guy with a Pansonic GH1+ Voigtlander Nokton 0.95/25. Budget Leica? Voigtlander Nokton 25mm F0.95 Sample Street Photographs Photos Images I've seen many posts saying Panasonic's thrown a lot of effort into their newer version of this camera, mind you I don't think you get a 20 page thread Umming and Ahring over a Pany. Clive Clive, thanks for the link, always interesting to see new material. But I did find the images unremarkable, and image quality difficult to judge at this size. Good camera though, no doubt about that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD700 Posted November 9, 2010 Share #395 Posted November 9, 2010 ps one thing more clive...its right what Richard says, its not all about what the cameras is stricly capable to do Image-quality-wise, but also, and perhaps most of all, how much it is able to creap under your skin...and this is THE feeling that keeps you shooting unless you are a pro.I have had Nikon all my life, besides all the other stuff, but let me be frank, they never crept under my skin, just a tool, ok efective though, but no....no smiling just holding it, walking around with it, but an effective tool, but not a frienly one you feel connected with as I do with the M6... that is the difference I have to stick to...so ..m9 Expensive feeling, under your skin. I'd go for the M8.2 + 28 or 35, used preferably, put up with all the deficiencies, and make the best of what it's good at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Murray-White Posted November 9, 2010 Share #396 Posted November 9, 2010 Mike you could go a Visoflex, what with your addiction to slr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD700 Posted November 9, 2010 Share #397 Posted November 9, 2010 Mike you could go a Visoflex, what with your addiction to slr LoL! It's no worse an affliction. SORRY. addiction than M Leica's. Would it fit an M8? As I may have mentioned before, I'll stick to looking through the lens... P.s.: do I really have to minimize my shots to post them here? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Murray-White Posted November 9, 2010 Share #398 Posted November 9, 2010 Yes, but visoflex turns Ms into reflex so you could "look through the lens" and yes, I believe they do fit M8/9 though the whole system seems pretty clunky by todays standards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorkilB Posted November 10, 2010 Share #399 Posted November 10, 2010 Expensive feeling, under your skin. I'd go for the M8.2 + 28 or 35, used preferably, put up with all the deficiencies, and make the best of what it's good at. Yes Mike, but even more expensive when you all the time are bying things that dont hit you spot on mentally, and have to go on and on. Yes I could by a M8, just the body, and my own lenses, and even my 21mm would become a bit less "wild" allmost a 28mm, and my 15 Voigtländer could be a perhaps more usabel 19mm. But the M8 will just be too big a compromise, when I want full-frame, better colors, better IQ, better large print (when I by that Epson 3880)...so I have to be calm... In a way its a sort of a mental journey, also. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted November 10, 2010 Author Share #400 Posted November 10, 2010 when I want full-frame, better colors, better IQ, ThorkilB, to get a complete picture on these aspects I highly recommend the excellent reviews from Sead Reid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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