dwbell Posted October 7, 2010 Share #81 Posted October 7, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) Richard, as you read from my post reply on page 1 I'm coming from the 5dMkII which is the king (in canon line up) of low noise high ISO. For what it's worth I've been printing my keepers and some "what if's?" during the last month and ISO1600 through Lightroom 3 with some noise work and a touch of sharpening looks perfect (ie noiseless) on a 20x30cm which is my general print size. I will try larger prints and higher ISO's but if you print your results it's something worth knowing. Also the 1600 shots weren't good light just shot at 1600, they were crappy church interiors so mostly lower tones which is where the noise hides in this camera I'm finding. For ISO 2400 I may experiment a little with luminosity masks in PS to focus the reduction to the lower tones, but at 1600 I'm convinced that's not required. I have no experience or comparison of M8->M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 7, 2010 Posted October 7, 2010 Hi dwbell, Take a look here Should I take the M9 jump!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Guest stnami Posted October 7, 2010 Share #82 Posted October 7, 2010 That's what happens when one stands in a bucket of ice posing with a leica m8 in front of the bathroom mirror................... cold feet no m9 .................. credit card :)s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 7, 2010 Share #83 Posted October 7, 2010 Agree, the M9 is not about high ISO performance. But I don't consider 640 'high ISO'. All Leica lenses are superb. Fortunately you don't need a Lux to enjoy the M9. The more modest (by Leica standards) Elmarit & Summarit lenses already produce wonderful results. The 'Crons' are fabulous and I consider them the sweetspot of the lens range. If I decide for the M9 my choice would be either a 35 or 50 Cron. I don't think there will be any significant upgrade or successor of the M9 anytime soon. It's extremely good and also reviewed as such by virtually all knowledgeable sites and reviewers. And There are still waiting lists for it around the world. Richard. If I am going to blow that much cash on the camera, might as well go for the best lens? Minimum I will settle for is probably the cron. Anything less I will stick exclusively with the X1. Took some shots last night with it and oh boy (you may disagree:p) even the OOC jpegs are great! Brings a smile to my face so often this little gem... From the imminent (supposedly) firmware for the X1 and the quick release of the M9 firmware I think Leica is very progressive and adaptive and I think they WILL release some update soon. Thats my opinion only. Form what I see of things. They did that with the S2 too. You can get an M9 easy now here. But you have to book it so they shop gets it from Schmidt Marketing (Leica distributor in Asia). So it is readily available, just that shops are unwilling (or unable?) to carry stock of it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted October 7, 2010 Author Share #84 Posted October 7, 2010 Minimum I will settle for is probably the cron. Anything less I will stick exclusively with the X1. Took some shots last night with it and oh boy (you may disagree:p) even the OOC jpegs are great! Heheheh... Yes I do disagree. The OOC JPEGs from the X1 (and the M8 btw) are often flat, dull and lifeless compared to a well processed DNG. But if you are already satisfied with X1 JPEGs, why think about an M9 at all?... (teasing). Seriously, you're missing out on a lot of your cherished IQ by shooting JPEGs with the X1. As you would with an M. Yesterday I made a mistake with the settings on the M8. I was reviewing some images in Lightroom and thought hmmm.... I'm not at all impressed by what I see. Some corrections in LR and the image was all over the place. Took me 30 mins before I discovered I shot a few JPEGs. Switched to the DNGs and all was fine again. Sigh of relief... I think that any update for the M9 will be firmware and/or retrofitable upgrade(s). Like with the M8 > M8.2. Anything else makes no sense imo. A last one from last nights' sunset as it was so breathtaking. M8 + Elmarit 28 ISO 640 f/6.7 1/125sec. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 7, 2010 Share #85 Posted October 7, 2010 Hey Richard maybe I put across the OOC jpegs wrongly. My normal "workflow" (if you can call it that ) means I look at the OOC jpeg first, like yesterday I used it at night in B&W high contrast, and if the results is ok, then fine, if not, I tweak the Joeg images using the sliders in PS/LR/Nik. If the results are still not satisfactory I go to the raw files which I ALWAYS shoot then tweak from there more extensively. What I mean is some shots OOC are nice to use as they are (depending on purpose) but for most I push some sliders and they are good. Rarely is there a need to do from raw. Saves time. Also, I tend to do a lot of PP for shots I really think are nice but for the rest it is nice to have them still nice enuf for viewing, but extensive PP from raw deemed unnecessary. But for many cameras including my nikon I think some kind of PP is almost always necessary. There is also some joy in having a nice image right out of the camera without tweaking, though tweakign can be fun too:p The sunset image from the M8 is awesome, do you think from your experience the X1 can do the same? Also you spoke of noise at 640 iso, exactly how noisy? I am worried about NR as they almost always kill some finer details. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted October 7, 2010 Author Share #86 Posted October 7, 2010 One last important thing about JPEG. With JPEGs you have a pre-baked 8 bit cookie made with Leicas' in camera recipe. Processed with relatively simple routines and algorithms on simple processors etc (in camera). With a lot of image data thrown away in the process from the JPEG compression. Advanced programs like Lightroom (and others) running on powerful PC/MACs do a much better and more accurate job converting DNG to JPEG. At this moment Adobe's ACR/LR RAW engine is state of the art. No in camera routine can be as good. Very rarely I have an image from which the JPEG looks as good as it's processed DNG sister can. On the sunset image. Yes, for sure the X1 can do this too. With less noise to. The (brilliant) luminance noise reduction in LR3 was at 40 on this image. That is quite a lot. But... there definitely is something about the M8 files that makes them special. Although this particular image doesn't really shows that imo. Frustrating thing is that it's impossible (for me) to put my finger on what it is. No matter how hard I look in LR. But it's very clear nonetheless. Talking to my Leica dealer this morning he said 'what we learned from our customers is that if you don't see it in the first couple of decent images, don't bother and stick to the camera you have'. Just as if you don't 'get' the Leica M thing in the first couple of days you probably never will. Generalizations of course but not far off imo. The judge is still out but I do like it. A lot... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 7, 2010 Share #87 Posted October 7, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) One last important thing about JPEG. With JPEGs you have a pre-baked 8 bit cookie made with Leicas' in camera recipe. Processed with relatively simple routines and algorithms on simple processors etc (in camera). With a lot of image data thrown away in the process from the JPEG compression.Advanced programs like Lightroom (and others) running on powerful PC/MACs do a much better and more accurate job converting DNG to JPEG. At this moment Adobe's ACR/LR RAW engine is state of the art. No in camera routine can be as good. Very rarely I have an image from which the JPEG looks as good as it's processed DNG sister can. On the sunset image. Yes, for sure the X1 can do this too. With less noise to. The (brilliant) luminance noise reduction in LR3 was at 40 on this image. That is quite a lot. But... there definitely is something about the M8 files that makes them special. Although this particular image doesn't really shows that imo. Frustrating thing is that it's impossible (for me) to put my finger on what it is. No matter how hard I look in LR. But it's very clear nonetheless. Talking to my Leica dealer this morning he said 'what we learned from our customers is that if you don't see it in the first couple of decent images, don't bother and stick to the camera you have'. Just as if you don't 'get' the Leica M thing in the first couple of days you probably never will. Generalizations of course but not far off imo. The judge is still out but I do like it. A lot... True with the jpegs, but tweaking raw vs tweaking jpegs sometimes the difference can be minimal. Some may only accept raw, but for less "important" images I do the tweaking from jpegs good enough IMO. Too bad your X1 is not with you, no clear way to compare unless something to compare with? "something about it being special" is vague but I know what you are talking about. SOmetimes I compare nikon and X1 images and I go also "something special about the X1 images" haha. A strict comparison between the two will yield more answers. Also too bad all my friends shoot with DSLRs so I cant borrow a M8 anywhere. With respect to the difference between X1 and M8 I shot the M8/cron images in the store and stored it in my own SD. Upon comparing I find sometimes the X1 images are more appealing, sometimes the M8. No clear winner. It is my opinion it could be you are doing the trial with the elmarit. Try it with better lenses and you will go for the M9 I think. Lens is a huge part of the equation and thats why I am still thinking about investing in a digital M, to use the lux. My limited trial with the M8/35mm cron did not give a clear advantage over the X1 images, but from what I view the lux produces the kind of dreamy look few lenses can match. Like I said, my 35mm nikkor f1.4 should be here anytime soon, and I will go for a detailed shootout X1/M8 35mm cron/nikkor 35mm f1.4 at the camera store haha. That may yield some results? If the new 35mm lux is out then better still... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina Manley Posted October 7, 2010 Share #88 Posted October 7, 2010 I went back through my files trying to find some photos made at high ISOs with my M9, but I don't have many. I use all of Leica's fastest lenses and seldom need to go over 160 ISO, but I did find this one at 320 - no noise reducers used. It's still amazing to me what light Leica lenses can pull in, even the old 90 Summicron: Tina Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina Manley Posted October 7, 2010 Share #89 Posted October 7, 2010 I went back through my files trying to find some photos made at high ISOs with my M9, but I don't have many. I use all of Leica's fastest lenses and seldom need to go over 160 ISO, but I did find this one at 320 - no noise reducers used. Tina I can't get that one to show up for some reason. Here's the link: Rain! photo - Tina Manley photos at pbase.com Tina Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted October 7, 2010 Share #90 Posted October 7, 2010 I can't get that one to show up for some reason. Here's the link:Rain! photo - Tina Manley photos at pbase.com Tina Wow! Thanks for the link Maybe this will work - Tina's picture NOT mine!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 8, 2010 Share #91 Posted October 8, 2010 I can't get that one to show up for some reason. Here's the link:Rain! photo - Tina Manley photos at pbase.com Tina Fantastic shot Tina! Lighting was fabulous..which probably goes back to my thinking that the lux is probably the first lens I would look at, or at least the cron. Otherwise we may be forced to raise the iso and have to contend with the noise. Thanks Tina for the pointers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted October 8, 2010 Author Share #92 Posted October 8, 2010 Thank you Tina. Stunning image! It's almost more red than my screen can handle. I've shot more images by now and the M8 is indeed superb at ISO 160 and 320. Jawdropping even. Noise becomes clearly visible at 640 in Lightroom but the images still look very good when exported to screen-size JPGs. The ISO scale on the M8 takes large steps (640 > 1250). The M9 has a much finer scale and that is an improvement imo. This is just a simple portrait from an acquaintance. ISO 320, lens wide open at 2.8. Focus on the left eye. I think the performance of the little 28 Elmarit is very good. Drawing, detail and background separation are amazing. While the name and specs appear to be the same, this lens cannot be compared to the X1 lens. It's much better. As it should be, it cost nearly the same as the entire X1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 8, 2010 Share #93 Posted October 8, 2010 Nice vintage look on that one Richard. It is a nice photo honestly though if I were to blow $7K on a camera body you probably want everything including for me a "dreamier" (if there is such a thing haha) bokeh you know what I mean. For me at least like the Nikkor 85mm 1.4. Sorry if I am talking nikon coz thats the only comparison I can think of, since I only have nikon and the X1. At this price range for camera/lens I want A LOT... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina Manley Posted October 8, 2010 Share #94 Posted October 8, 2010 The 35/1.4 has nice, dreamy bokeh Tina Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tina Manley Posted October 8, 2010 Share #95 Posted October 8, 2010 The 35/1.4 has nice, dreamy bokeh Tina I don't know what I'm doing wrong that some photos post and some don't. Here's the link: The Taj Mahal photo - Tina Manley photos at pbase.com Tina Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 8, 2010 Share #96 Posted October 8, 2010 I don't know what I'm doing wrong that some photos post and some don't. Here's the link: The Taj Mahal photo - Tina Manley photos at pbase.com Tina Gosh Tina, saw the photo of the taj phenomenal! I am also thinking with the kind of investment on the body least we can do is get a lux... having seen your site your photos are the kind I hope to take (I can hope?)... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwolf Posted October 8, 2010 Share #97 Posted October 8, 2010 I don't know what I'm doing wrong that some photos post and some don't. Here's the link: The Taj Mahal photo - Tina Manley photos at pbase.com Tina Tina, a very different view of the Taj, which suggests some of its sad history. Thanks for sharing it. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jto555 Posted October 8, 2010 Share #98 Posted October 8, 2010 Hi Tina, that is the most evocative shot of the Taj I have ever seen. It surpasses the picture postcard we normally see and shows an India of both great wealth and great poverty. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardM8 Posted October 9, 2010 Author Share #99 Posted October 9, 2010 I'm looking a bit more into the high(er) ISO part of the M8. The way I feel now this is one of the most important do-or-don't aspects for me to buy the M9 or not. As said, I absolutely love to use and handle the M8. The size, the shape, the controls, the weight, how it sits in your hand etc. It's an experience like no other camera and it almost feels as if there's no going back anymore. The results I get from shots at ISO 640 and 1250 are very mixed. I haven't yet figured out why. Some are quite good, others are plain horrible. The X1 seems more consistent in its output. Especially at higher ISOs. Maybe I'm simply doing things wrong or the metering from the X1 is better compared to the fairly crude/simple metering on the M. I don't know... Below is just a random test at ISO 1250 shot through a window. With some corrections and filtering in Lightroom it turned out quite good. While clearly noisier than the X1 in Lightroom, the look of M8 images remains special. With or without noise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phancj Posted October 9, 2010 Share #100 Posted October 9, 2010 Richard, Much as I do not like to buy anything used, I am inclined towards buying a used M8. Reason is I believe the M9 may evolve quickly, so in the interim since you enjoy the M8 so much why not buy one at $2K it is a third of the M9. Also gives you a chance to use a RF for at least sometime to decide if you like it. I may do the same, and put more of my spare cash in lenses which will not go obsolete. the first I buy most likely brand new cron 35. I will try to make some arrangements to get a used M8, and need some help with which serial numbers are newer. Anyone able to help here?? And yes, I'll keep the x1, I got a feeling I'll use it more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.