Two Dead M9s

[jplomley]

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My M8 had numerous issues and trips to Leica NJ (first one was total lemon) as well as other service issues with coding lenses, etc. (like coding a 28 as a 24 after an eight week wait).

 

Well, I did not really want to elaborate on my service experience, but my 28 Cron Asph came back coded as a 28/2.8 Elmarit Asph. As far as I'm concerned, service is the weakest link in Leica's business. I know NJ is trying hard, and their communication overall was very good, but just far too many little mistakes are being made that are just hard to fathom. The fact that they now include surveys for your sevice experience indicates they are trying to improve matters.

[AlanG]

It's the hubris that is beginning to wear, and if you don't see that Andy then you must be breathing the same rarified air that seems to hang in a bubble over Solms. I love Leicas (I have their logo tattooed on my forearm) but it's miserable to see them pander to the sports car set and not working photographers.

 

From this and some other posts about repair delays and difficulty buying let alone renting lenses and bodies, I've asked myself, "What is the intended market for Leica products?"

 

And it seems to me the market is very patient people who don't mind waiting for a lens or a repair. I can understand an unusual lens being in short supply, but 35 and 50 mm f 1.4 and f2 lenses should be available for purchase with a camera body. Otherwise, what are you to do, buy the body and no lens? (Assuming you don't have any Leica M lenses already and you want one of these lenses or perhaps several for a usable system.)

 

I don't know why they can't make more lenses if there is such a back order situation. Perhaps when Leica tries to scale up production to meet demand, that is where the QA problem comes in and defective M9s get shipped.

 

I briefly looked on the B&H site. These are in stock:

 

28 2.8, 90 2.5, 50 2.5, 28 2.0, 35 2.5, 24 3.8, 18 3.8, 24 1.4, 75 2.5

 

And these are out of stock:

 

35 f2, 50 .95, 50 1.4, 50 2, 135 3.4, 35 1.4, 75 2, 90 2, 21 1.4, 21 2.8, 24 2.8, 90 4 macro, Tri-Elmar, and some accessories,

 

So if you wanted an M9 with a 35, 50 and 90 at f2 or f 1.4, you are shut out. But perhaps Leica is happy to be in the position of more demand than supply.

[aesop]

...my 50mm Summilux ASPH back-focused way back in 2005. I blame the M9Ti.

[digger1914]

I have been using Leica Ms for many years including M7, MP and M8. I've also owned an SL, R7, R8 and R9. Much of my equipment has been to Solms for a CLA and I have always received impeccable service.

 

This makes my recent experience trying to buy an M9 all the more frustrating. I decided to trade my M8 upgrade on a new M9. On Friday night I proudly collected it from my Melbourne Dealer but found when I got home that it was dead: "Attention no SD card" was the greeting I received trying multiple SanDisk cards at home and in the shop.

 

My dealer took it back on Monday and this morning told me they had reallocated their last M9 in stock to me. So again I went down, spare charged battery and SD card in hand: "Attention shutter fault" was the greeting from the second body this time! We tried it at each shutter speed but no change (though it did recognise the SD card!)

 

Although they will of course replace it, Adeal the Australian distributor, who confirmed that both bodies were legitimate stock received from the factory, says it will have no stock until late October at the earliest.

 

What is happening at Solms? How can two successive dead cameras slide through quality control.

 

Perhaps we should be urging Leica to pause with new product development and spend a little more time on quality control?

 

Am I being unreasonable or is this less than I can reasonably expect from a firm for which I have held such admiration and respect for so long?

 

David

 

That's scary stuff indeed. and scarier for me, as I have been waiting for two months for mine and the notion that new stock will not arrive until late October at the earliest is not pleasing!

[jplomley]

...my 50mm Summilux ASPH back-focused way back in 2005. I blame the M9Ti

 

And your point being? Contribute something useful, and you may be taken seriously.

[aesop]

And your point being? Contribute something useful, and you may be taken seriously.

 

 

...précisément, Jeff - I fear you just might have hit the nail on the head, albeit unwittingly.

[bill]

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Jeff, I took Aesop's point to be that human nature being what it is the very existence of the M9Ti will be blamed for everything for a while; the lack of M9s and lenses, the poor service turnaround (NOTE: Yes, I think it is poor) the lack of consistent QA (NOTE: Yes, I think that is an issue too), the worm in the Iranian nuclear plant, Wayne Rooney's inability to keep it in his trousers, etc, etc.

 

It is a convenient whipping boy - an excuse for everything and a reason for nothing. Linking it to some of the issues above is lazy logic and does not help to clarify an unacceptable situation.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[Guest trond]

Dear Bill!

 

Well spoken, well spoken indeed!

 

Best regards

 

Trond

[alexmann]

From what I understand the reason for the delay on the new 35mm lens is because when the first batch was produced and released some of them seemed to be 'out' in the mid focus range. I now understand that this issue has been rectified. There is a suggestion that stock was not held up in order to produce the Titanium version. Normal stock of 35mm 'Lux's should start leaving the factory 'shortly'. Leica is producing other stock but the problem that they have is that the demand worldwide is greater than the production output and that therefore they cannot, at present, keep up with the demand. They have employed more people to help with demand, but they must first be sufficiently trained.

[lincoln_m]

Hi,

Could it be problems during shipping? I notice that people far from Germany have problems. Perhaps the cameras are being dropped and connections are being dislodged? Leica seem to have trouble with electronics but mechanicals seem to be more reliable. Perhaps they should send the bodies to Japan (Panasonic) to have the electrics put in and final test?

 

Re the lack of lenses and people to build them. I remember only a few years ago Leica had some factor layoffs, can't remember if that was before they moved stuff to Portugal or if they have closed Portugal factory recently. But I guess it is the new digital Ms that have increased the number of customers wanting lenses although only the M9 has put people on to the standard lenses 35,50,90 as the M8 would have caused demand for 24, 35,75 ( to get 32, 47, 100mm in 35mm full frame equiv).

 

Regards, Lincoln

[Mark D]

If you were head of quality control at Leica how many shutter activations would you do before the camera left the factory? Same with replacing battery and SD card?

 

Would you shake, rattle and roll the camera? A drop test?

 

And would you do each and every camera or maybe 1 in 3 or 1 in 5?

 

Thoughts?

[thompsonkirk]

For $7K, the only acceptable answer to your last question is 'every d••••d one.'

 

Kirk

[AlanG]

If you were head of quality control at Leica how many shutter activations would you do before the camera left the factory?

 

There's a head of quality control?

[ho_co]

Guys, please!

 

Slow delivery has been par for the course with Leica since long before I worked for them, and the reasons are clear to anyone who has visited their plant or bothered to try to understand their production procedure.

 

For those who claim that M9's are showing a too-high defective rate, just remember that the same has been said for (to my knowledge) every new introduction. Have you noticed how few "My M9 doesn't work" posts there are compared to the "My M8 doesn't work" posts, despite that Leica has shipped far more M9's (we assume) than M8's in the same period.

 

 

... I can understand an unusual lens being in short supply, but 35 and 50 mm f 1.4 and f2 lenses should be available for purchase with a camera body....

I don't think it does a lot of good to second-guess what lenses Leica should be shipping and which ones they can let ride.

 

 

Oh, one more point for those who want to hold the M9T responsible for parts shortages: Just how many M9T's has Leica shipped so far?

[mgreernz]

Leaving aside Bill's worm in the Iranian nuclear plant and Wayne Rooney's trousers (or did I get the worm in the wrong place?), or even the suggestion that's it's all caused by us in the southern hemisphere living too far from the hamlets of Deutschland, it seems there is at least common agreement that somewhere deep in the bowels of Leica, there is a serious QC, Customer Service and market perception problem.

 

Sure, we could find easy targets to blame. Like employee competencies, sub-contractors, shipping companies and the location of antipodean hermits. But from near on 50 years of experience in commerce, I suspect the cause is more likely to be found in the commitment (or lack of commitment) the company's management is making to QC, the allocation of adequate financial resources, and its listening to the market-place.

 

So like it or not, that brings you full circle back to whether expenditure on projects such as an M9ti for the rich and famous is the best use of the company's resources. It doesn't matter whether those resources are in management, R&D, finance, the professional development of staff, or wherever - if they're not focussed on the best they can be, then the worst they can be will be the inevitable outcome.

 

Is the M9ti the sole cause of this QC and Customer Service fiasco? Of course it's not. No more than Wayne Rooney's trousers are. So I go along with Andy's earlier comment. The M9ti may have played hardly any part in this at all. But it is an outstanding example of a company's misplaced priorities.

 

When the celebration of one head of company's enthusiasm for fine cameras and another head of company's enthusiasm for fine cars becomes a market strategy to be showcased to the world, something's amiss. At a time when the market is still clamouring for M9's, Summiluxes and God knows what else, it's a strangely odd decision and misallocation of critical (and no doubt, scarce) resources.

 

It's what 40 years ago my marketing lecturer described as the difference between "product-in" and "product-out". Product-in is a company listening keenly to the clamour of its market, and ensuring all of its resources are best placed to deliver a product of excellence even in excess of the market's own expectations. In contrast, "product-out" is from a company who thinks it knows it all - and delivers to the market only what the company thinks will be good for the market. Guess which survives?

 

Right now, the market's perception seems to be that deep in the bowels of Leica lies a serious QC and Customer Service problem. There's trouble at mill.

 

An honest and open response from Leica would be welcomed by us all.

[andybarton]

Leica haven't closed their Portugal factory. Indeed most of the camera assembly is done there.

 

Shipping to Panasonic for insertion of the electronics would mean that Made in Japan would replace Made in Germany.

[eritho]

Leica haven't closed their Portugal factory. Indeed most of the camera assembly is done there.

 

Shipping to Panasonic for insertion of the electronics would mean that Made in Japan would replace Made in Germany.

 

Why not: "Made in Portugal and Japan"

[marknorton]

I don't believe the M9Ti will have influenced M9 production so far, availabilty is said to be Nov/Dec and Leica dates often slip. The M9Ti is just an M9 in glitzy (was going to say smart but thought better of it) clothes but will compete with the normal M9 for production resources at some point. For a limited production run, it would make sense to take a normal M9 from Portugal, dismantle it and replace the parts different in the M9Ti rather than set up a completely separate production line. If Leica are making between 50 and 100 cameras a day, the effect of the the M9Ti is not so great.

 

Leica Portugal was an early attempt to move production to a lower cost economy, an advantage which has been eroded over time. I would prefer Leica to make the entire M9 in Germany (accepting that many parts and assemblies, especially the shutter and elecrtronics, are bought in from wherever) because Germany has a track record of precision manufacturing which Portugal simply does not. QC has to be applied throughout the entire parts sourcing and production processes and it's wrong to expect the people in Solms to pick up any and all problems which may have been introduced much earlier in the process.

 

Leica will know how much extra an M9 would cost to make if it were entirely made in Germany. We do not but it must presumably be significant enough to warrant keeping Portugal going.

 

Does make you wonder whether there will ever be a thread entitled: "Two Dead M9Ti's". Leica must be hoping this camera will be for collectors only.

[alexmann]

I would prefer Leica to make the entire M9 in Germany (accepting that many parts and assemblies, especially the shutter and elecrtronics, are bought in from wherever) because Germany has a track record of precision manufacturing which Portugal simply does not. QC has to be applied throughout the entire parts sourcing and production processes and it's wrong to expect the people in Solms to pick up any and all problems which may have been introduced much earlier in the process.

 

+1

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[rosuna]

The M9 Ti does not require a large investment, and it is the more profitable investment one can imagine. The income will be 11 millions of euros, and the production cost may be marginally higher than that of regular M9s. Fast recovery, no risk... It is a pity Leica cannot do this every 3 months! I don't see the M9 Ti as a distraction of resources. Just the contrary, it is a magnet for additional resources.

 

I also hope Leica (and Jenoptik) will solve soon the quality problems (assembling and finishing, but also the quality of the electronic components), affecting cameras and lenses.