No "R" solution at Photokina!

[masjah]

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I've spent a great deal of money on R glass. I don't think enough attention has been paid to the fact that several important R lenses cannot be used (either not at all or without hacking them about) on third party bodies. I own a significant number of these. So far as I can see, at present it seems therefore that it's a DMR or nothing - and DMRs are getting a bit long in the tooth, so spending over £2k on one is a worry. At the moment I stick with film.

 

I'm fed up with teasing hints that something is "under consideration". I'm beginning to think that they may well "consider" for twenty years, and then say that, after careful consideration they will do nothing.

 

I'm just beginning to consider whether or not I should sell my R equipment. That would mean my walking away from Leica, completely, with a bad taste in my mouth. Sorry, but that is how I'm beginning to feel.

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[bill]

As background, I was a big Contax SLR user, and I also had the G1 and G2. The RX was to me the best SLR I have ever found, bar none and the glass was superlative. I was disappointed when Kyocera and Zeiss killed the lines, but I didn't dwell on it. I moved on, to Nikon then to Leica.

 

The death of the R has been more protracted than Frank Sinatra's farewell tours, but it has gone, as has he. It is an ex-system. Deceased. Shuffled off this mortal coil. No more.

 

There are two options. Continue to enjoy what you have in good grace, as I did until a few short weeks ago, or move on. There is no middle ground. The Leitax solution is the nearest you can get to a Leica DSLR; if it doesn't appeal - and it didn't to me - then find something that does.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[masjah]

As background, I was a big Contax SLR user, and I also had the G1 and G2. The RX was to me the best SLR I have ever found, bar none and the glass was superlative. I was disappointed when Kyocera and Zeiss killed the lines, but I didn't dwell on it. I moved on, to Nikon then to Leica.

 

The death of the R has been more protracted than Frank Sinatra's farewell tours, but it has gone, as has he. It is an ex-system. Deceased. Shuffled off this mortal coil. No more.

 

There are two options. Continue to enjoy what you have in good grace, as I did until a few short weeks ago, or move on. There is no middle ground. The Leitax solution is the nearest you can get to a Leica DSLR; if it doesn't appeal - and it didn't to me - then find something that does.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Bill, I agree with almost everything you say (except that I shall exercise my prerogative about the "good grace" bit!).

[mjh]

I was told, that Leica has problems with Kodak sensor and Liveview, which should be fixed early 2011.

By whom? ;-) Kodak’s full-frame transfer CCDs (that Leica has been using in the DMR as well as the M8 and M9) don’t support live-view by virtue of their design. They never will and there is nothing to be “fixed”. An EVIL camera requires a CMOS sensor and the most likely supplier of such a sensor would be Sony.

[Jerry_R]

We will see. Olympus is (or was recently) also testing KODAK sensor, and it definitely would allow recording video too.

So no CCD. Time will show.

[Guest nafpie]

In

, Leica told us that they are not working on a new DSLR concept now and that they are concentrating on the systems they already have.

 

This is not a R solution, though. Quite the opposite.

[mjh]

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Olympus is (or was recently) also testing KODAK sensor, and it definitely would allow recording video too.

Last time Olympus has been releasing a camera with a Kodak sensor was in 2006. Which Kodak sensor are you talking about?

[Jerry_R]

Michael,

it was mentioned on 43rumors few weeks ago.

[mjh]

it was mentioned on 43rumors few weeks ago.

So there’s no reliable source?

[Jerry_R]

So there’s no reliable source?

Their hit rate is high, but of course not guaranteed.

[mooky]

While I appreciate Stefan Daniels speaking to and answering questions - he answered the question - will Leica be making a FF DSLR like C and N - he answered it precisely that Leica will not be making a DSLR.

 

My point is that obviously many here are not satisfied with the comments so far - so perhaps Leica would do better if they actually had someone who is, or has training in news releases and/or public relations. Daniels simply could have added to his answer that 'we are working towards a solution for R lens owners'. Which he did say to Anderas'.

 

They are overwhelmed by the demand for the M9 and lenses as well - this is THE priority because they have to provide product for a waiting and in some cases partially paid-for goods. Until they say they are not going to come with an R lens solution - I think it's best to go by the very little they have said - as unsatisfying that it is.

[nicekyo]

I have been following a digital R solution ever since the DMR was announced sometime in 2004. From what I gathered, there are many of us who fall into two buckets of R users.

 

Bucket 1:

Legacy R-users with many lenses including the mythical 35-70 f2.8.

 

Bucket 2:

New R-users who picked up new/used leica R glass at steep discounts.

 

As a result of this new user base, there is this surge of online postings, rumors, and news stories hammering for a FF digital solution. What users need to get a grip on is that this artificial inflation will not translate to sales or interest for Leica. As stated in else where, Leica is a very small company, boutique brand if you like, and their R&D resources is only capable of one or two lines at a time. Currently, the M9 and S2 is their focus, because it simply generates revenue for Leica. And wouldn't they love to be on a path of profitability to pay off big brother Pany.

 

Remember when the DMR came out, and the DMR bible from Freda (website), users were raving about the quality of the pictures with flexcolor, but at the end of life, the DMR never generated meaningful revenue. And more importantly, it never translated into sales!

 

To put forth a FF EVIL camera, Leica needs to spend lots money on research, and build the camera with low margins because they simply lack the demand for volume purchase similar to Nikon/Canon/Sony. Maybe Pany will help? Who knows.

 

In short, from a business perspective, Leica lacks the bandwidth and funds to build a cost prohibitive product for the R users. Maybe in a couple of years, when CMOS/CCD production yields are higher, and mass production becomes a true reality, perhaps then, just maybe, Leica will step in and give R users something to be cheer about.

 

For now, enjoy your DMR/film, because there are very few companies that has crafted clean glass like Leica.

[swamiji]

nicekyo

 

I pretty much agree with what you have said. I am in Bucket 2. My DMR is at Leica for service, but truly love the quality. My favorite SLR of all time is the Leicaflex SL2 . I am also in the market for a second one. I just am curious where the market will go, now that Photokina is past, and nothing happened...

[janki]

I have throughout my adult life been a friend of America. The postwar period marked my childhood, and I am, to put it that way, a true child of the Cold War.

Many in my granparents generation deliberately drove only English or American cars.

It is not possible for me today to choose the same, simply because the English car industry is wiped out and the modern American car in practice is only marketable in America for environmental reasons.

My last two cars are Japanese, because the Japanese are much better at producing cars that are relevant to me.

 

After Photokina 2010, I am left with the feeling that we within a few years will no longer have any relevant photo industry back on the so-called Western Hemisphere.

I've used Japanese SLR cameras in the pre digital days, but went over to Leica because of the compact SLR bodies with good build quality and high optical quality lenses.

It has worked until now even after the world became digital, because I am so lucky to own a fantastic Japanese film scanner from one of the two great you know.

 

I've been sitting on the fence and waited for the digital photography technique would ripen sufficiently before I decided what camera system I should buy for the now all-digital future. I had hoped that Leica could have been with me into the digital future, but after the Photokina 2010 I realize that Leica is not going to build a digital camera system that is relevant to me.

I've obviously played with some small Panas in between, but now I feel I must move forward with a real FF DSLR camera.

Both the different Canon 1D's, and Nikon D3 models I feel are too big and heavy. Canon and Nikon enthusiast models, D 700 and 5Dll are not quite where I wish technically.

I wonder very much if Sony really is going to invest further in FF DSLR's camera systems.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought someone mentioned in one of these threads that Zeiss might be expected to revive in a new Contax DSLR body.

Maybe even the professional cameras will be mirrorless soon.

 

The young extra help in the photo store are now seeing more and more strange to me when I ask to buy a roll of film. "Yes, it tends to be something on the shelf back there", I must explain almost every time.

Sure it obviously urgent to find the digital solution for me. 10/10/10 is just around the corner. It could have been a fantastic day for the launch of a Leica model 10 of any kind. 11/11/11 is a long time to wait for.

Hopefully Photokina 2012 brings more news than this year's event.

I think the photographic film will be a nonexisting commercial product by 12/12/12

It will be interesting to see how many camera manufacturers that still exist by the end of 2012

[Dikdik]

.......................................................................

 

The death of the R has been more protracted than Frank Sinatra's farewell tours, but it has gone, as has he. It is an ex-system. Deceased. Shuffled off this mortal coil. No more.

 

There are two options. Continue to enjoy what you have in good grace, as I did until a few short weeks ago, or move on. There is no middle ground. The Leitax solution is the nearest you can get to a Leica DSLR; if it doesn't appeal - and it didn't to me - then find something that does.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

 

Hello Bill,

 

in the main points I do fully agree with your statement. But to my opinion, you don't hit the problem.

 

First, I have to point out we – my wife and me – are R-users since more than 25 years. We see ourselfes as nature photographers specialized in rare and almost shy animals. Some of our photos we sell - today in digital form as a conditio sine qua non – but we are not professionals. It is still a nice hobby.

The wonderful R-cameras and lenses came with us to all continents. The equipment outlasted different weather conditions including sand- and snowstorms, heat and cold and quite often more than harsh treatments by the users. During 25 years working with Leica-R-cameras we had really not only one severe problem with our gear. That was the original reason we used this system.

 

To my opinion the problem Leica did is the breach of confidence.

Buying an R-camera means not to aquire a simple box with glass and metal. The customer is buying an entire system. I might say, he is joining in marriage with the company. He will invest in a couple of years maybe some ten thousands of Dollars in this system. Thereby he has to rely on the quality, on the permanence of the product line, on the updating and modernization of the equipment as well as on the continuity of customer services repairing gear coming out of order. All these are qualities Leica has typically deputized for decades. And the customer has paid for this.

 

The problem is not the non-existence of the digital R10. The problem is, as I see it, the total lack of a modern digital alternative. When other companies like Nikon and Canon did change their product lines, which is without any question, necessary from time to time, they offered alternatives for their customers. The Leica-S-system might be an excellent camera. Despite the level of prices of the gear, the absence of big telelenses characterizes the S-system as a non-successor for the R-system.

 

Once R-cameras have been the favoured equipment for expeditions and travellers to areas far away from any civilization. Meeting the last Photokina this year we've got the impression the new target of the Leica company is now photography of fashion, models and products.

 

This, Bill, is to my opinion the essential problem: the abrupt finishing of a total system without any modern and alternative solution for thousands and thousands of sad customers all over the world.

 

Coming from the Photokina 2008 we have decided to change the system step by step and are now working mainly with some big Canons; not voluntarily but still mourning for our great Leica-R-cameras and lenses.

 

Best regards

:):

Dikdik

[paulmoore]

I have been following a digital R solution ever since the DMR was announced sometime in 2004. From what I gathered, there are many of us who fall into two buckets of R users.

 

Bucket 1:

Legacy R-users with many lenses including the mythical 35-70 f2.8.

 

Bucket 2:

New R-users who picked up new/used leica R glass at steep discounts.

 

As a result of this new user base, there is this surge of online postings, rumors, and news stories hammering for a FF digital solution. What users need to get a grip on is that this artificial inflation will not translate to sales or interest for Leica. As stated in else where, Leica is a very small company, boutique brand if you like, and their R&D resources is only capable of one or two lines at a time. Currently, the M9 and S2 is their focus, because it simply generates revenue for Leica. And wouldn't they love to be on a path of profitability to pay off big brother Pany.

 

Remember when the DMR came out, and the DMR bible from Freda (website), users were raving about the quality of the pictures with flexcolor, but at the end of life, the DMR never generated meaningful revenue. And more importantly, it never translated into sales!

 

To put forth a FF EVIL camera, Leica needs to spend lots money on research, and build the camera with low margins because they simply lack the demand for volume purchase similar to Nikon/Canon/Sony. Maybe Pany will help? Who knows.

 

In short, from a business perspective, Leica lacks the bandwidth and funds to build a cost prohibitive product for the R users. Maybe in a couple of years, when CMOS/CCD production yields are higher, and mass production becomes a true reality, perhaps then, just maybe, Leica will step in and give R users something to be cheer about.

 

For now, enjoy your DMR/film, because there are very few companies that has crafted clean glass like Leica.

 

I have just posted on another thread here my lament over seeing my r9/dmr get older and older with no planned evolution..but I am getting over that.

 

I think the s2 concept and its full complete system is the future ( it certainly isn't the now) modern body, modern lenses beautifully made. It reeks of Leica, a brand icon. The disconnect is that I, like many lifelong photographers, can't afford this level of craftsmanship. It pains me to think I am at the top of my ability but not able to write the check for this new system, few are in that position, very few working photographers. That is not Leica's fault..They build the best camera and lenses they can..it costs a lot, I get that, but until I can write that check I would like to continue to use the R in new ways.

If I were CEO and the major Leica stock holder for just a day, I would issue this statement to all current R users.

 

" Leica deeply appreciates our committed R customers who have purchased our products for over 30 years. Due to the nature of our changed industry and the need to move into the 21st century the R system was no longer viable. However, we will work to provide our faithful with a modern digital system which your legacy lenses may be used in some capacity, even if this means offering a change of mount update through our service department or the use of an adapter. We can not at this time tell you what technology that camera will be or when it will be in the market, but rest assured we have it in our priorities and we are committed to make it happen." - dr. paul moore

[giordano]

...Thereby he has to rely on the quality, on the permanence of the product line, on the updating and modernization of the equipment as well as on the continuity of customer services repairing gear coming out of order. All these are qualities Leica has typically deputized for decades. And the customer has paid for this.

 

The problem is not the non-existence of the digital R10. The problem is, as I see it, the total lack of a modern digital alternative. When other companies like Nikon and Canon did change their product lines, which is without any question, necessary from time to time, they offered alternatives for their customers...

 

Good points, but not fair ones IMHO. Any time one buys equipment for very long term use one's taking a risk on the long term survival and long term policies of the manufacturer - and with the Leicaflex/Leica R line that hasn't looked like a safe bet at any time since the first Leicaflex missed the boat nearly 50 years ago.

 

The last time Canon made a really big change to its product line they cut off virtually all their existing users by using a totally different lens mount. The only existing (FD) lenses that could be used on the new (EOS) bodies were a few long-focus ones, and that only with an adapter that was also a teleconverter.

 

In fact only Nikon in the SLR marketplace has really tried to protect users' investment over the decades in the same way Leica has with the M series.

[Jerry_R]

The biggest issue is lack of clear communication.

 

Olympus stopped to develop further 43 system. They released last dSLR - E5. But they clearly told that their lower level dSLR customers will be supported by PEN's and next u43 bodies, including more professional ones. There will be no next E-620 model released. There will be no next E-5 model.

 

Meanwhile, already Olympus is working on new mirrorless module camera, most probably FF that will use new lenses format, but will also accept 43 and u43 lenses (via adapter and without full sensor coverage).

[according to 43rumors, I see no reason to not believe them, as most of their information confirmed in life].

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[mjh]

Olympus stopped to develop further 43 system.

That’s not at all what they said, at least the Olympus people I have talked to during photokina.

 

They released last dSLR - E5. But they clearly told that their lower level dSLR customers will be supported by PEN's and next u43 bodies, including more professional ones. There will be no next E-620 model released. There will be no next E-5 model.

Again, that’s not what they said. It is true that there will be no new FourThirds models below the E-5, but whether the E-5 will be last of its kind is anyone’s guess. Olympus stated postion is that as long as the performance of their FourThirds cameras is not available with Micro FourThirds models, they will continue to support FourThirds. Meanwhile they are exploring alternative possibilities such as on-sensor phase-detection, pellicle mirrors etc.; right now it is too early to tell what they will eventually come up with. Sounds familiar?

 

The difference between Olympus and Leica isn’t so much a difference in communication – Olympus doesn’t provide more information on future developments than Leica does, if only because they haven’t yet decided what road to take, just like Leica. The difference is that while the FourThirds system is still fully supported and there are cameras and lenses still in production, the R system has stopped being manufactured more than a year ago.

 

Meanwhile, already Olympus is working on new mirrorless module camera, most probably FF that will use new lenses format, but will also accept 43 and u43 lenses (via adapter and without full sensor coverage).

A FF system from Olympus would be quite unlikely and using FT lenses with a FF system wouldn’t make much sense. You shouldn’t rely so much on 43rumors and their ilk; unless they are just cynical these guys appear to be just as gullible as their readers; they lack the technical expertise to sort the wheat from the chaff when proffered rumours.

[Jerry_R]

information on future developments than Leica does, if only because they haven’t yet decided what road to take, just like Leica. The difference is that while the FourThirds system is still fully supported and there are cameras and lenses still in production, the R system has stopped being manufactured more than a year ago.

Truth.

In many interviews Olympus says about LAST produced dSLR. No reason for more mirror cameras.

 

Also number of released new bodies and lenses in last months - confirms their engagement into 43 format.

 

They gave a really nice gift to their system users - E-5 allowing them to continue using 43 lenses in coming years without any shame against C, N or S users. They now have what other systems have - finally video, better noise control and better details due to weak AA. That says how Olympus treats their customers!