Did Leica Management Learn Anything?

[StS]

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Completely the opposite. No one create tools for photographers as Leica does. Thecdownside is that it cost a lot to get the best 21mm low light lens or the best 50mm lens.

 

If you look at the complete lens lineupnof Leica you won't find one weak lens. Take a look at the Nikon and Canon lineup then, and ask yourself why those companies make lenses, and for whom.

 

This is spot on. I always wonder, why photographers argue more about bodies than about lenses. I guess nobody can complain about Leica's maintenance of their (M) lens range.

 

Stefan

[pop]

I had a dream.

 

I dreamt that all those forum members who - by their own evaluation - understand so much more about management than the folks at Leica. Well, I dreamt that they collectively went ahead and designed the much wanted camera with the following specifications:

 

Digital SLR with FF sensor

Uses all lenses originally used by any variant of the R system

Exposure both manual and automatic in all three modes A, S and P

Autofocus

Live view both in the view finder and in the back of the camera

Suggested retail price of about USD 30.000 at an assumed volume of 500 units

 

Of course, said experts of management and camera design would personally guarantee that either 500 units were actually sold or - failing that - paid for by those experts.

 

The product is, of course, to be presented at the next Photokina.

[Xmas]

This is spot on. I always wonder, why photographers argue more about bodies than about lenses. I guess nobody can complain about Leica's maintenance of their (M) lens range.

 

Stefan

I have spent more money with Cosina than Leica this millennium buying lenses, I don't complain about that at all, saved a fortune. I've no complaints about Cosina.

 

One of the Leica lenses I did buy is the twist the hood the front falls off, it is very difficult to mount, short of wearing washing up gloves, probably a mistake for me to purchase.

 

Noel

[efftee]

"dead R dog out for more beating".... Are you serious when you say that? Because if you haven't noticed, many of us are simply asking for Leica to follow up on their own statements about an R solution. They wanted to have a 'design presentation' where they showed what have been up to, that's fine really and you like what they presented, I think it's just okay - visually I would have liked a bit more 'contrast' or visual tension applied to the ti M9, and I don't think it was worth all the advanced PR but seeing as how it's a very high-end collectible I understand why they did.

 

But it's not dragging out the dead dog for a beating to ask them to at least give we, the mostly up to this point very patient R users, who HAVE been promised a solution, a simple comment or two. Look, they must have known that people would notice a non-statement, and assuming that is correct, wouldn't it be easy to calm the beast that they have kept alive by just a simple comment or two? It's not complicated.

 

Mooky, I hear you man. And even sympathize with you. I'm sure many R users have tried all sorts of ways to get what they want from Leica on the matter, maybe you have too, and if they/you didn't/couldn't get anything out of it, do you think airing it again on the Photokina ticket would? I'm not an R user so I may not know what I saying but had I been, I would have moved on a long time ago. Life's too short to wait on some vague 'promise', don't you think?

 

By the way, I didn't say the M9T was great. I thought the design elements, from the use of material to the little nooks here and there, to be quite well done. Not sure what you meant by more 'contrast' or 'visual tension', but I thought the overall look and feel is rather balanced as it is. That said, I agree with many here who criticized it for its genuine shortcomings like the absence of a frameline lever and strap lugs, no framelines when camera is off, etc. It's obviously designed for a collector, not the working photographer; didn't the inflated price tag give that away? It is a statement piece, if you must play judge, then judge it as such.

[wildlightphoto]

I'm not an R user so I may not know what I saying but had I been, I would have moved on a long time ago.

 

Try moving on from the image quality of an APO-Telyt + DMR. Try moving on from a camera that allows you to focus anywhere in the field of view without using the failed Focus-Lock-Recompose kludge to one that dictates your compositions with focus "points". Try moving backwards to a manual aperture with moving subjects.

[efftee]

Try moving on from the image quality of an APO-Telyt + DMR. Try moving on from a camera that allows you to focus anywhere in the field of view without using the failed Focus-Lock-Recompose kludge to one that dictates your compositions with focus "points". Try moving backwards to a manual aperture with moving subjects.

 

Doug, what's the alternative? Stay and plead/beg/whine/cry? Surely there's a next best thing or else, I'm assuming you still have your R8/9 that gives you the image quality of an APO-Telyt + DMR and allows you to focus anywhere in the field of view without using the failed Focus-Lock-Recompose kludge to one that dictates your compositions with focus "points", no?

[mooky]

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I appreciate that efftee,

 

My first new Leica? An SL2mot and motor, back in the mid 70's, there is something really dynamite about it - I've used dang near every R body and most of the lenses, and M, but that camera is a real trip and I still use it today. So for myself, and not speaking for any other hooked R user, there isn't an equivalent, the lenses are great and get into your head, just as the M's are. (though now, the new M lens line is probably a tick better) and I'm not living in the past, the R8 and R9 captured much of the magic of the SL series.

 

Look, again, it's about passion; that R users have as much as M users do, but when someone - a business - commits themselves verbally to a product (more than once) and the market users for it are waiting patiently, to hear anything, you don't leave them hanging out to dry with silence at Photokina....that is a wasted opportunity. Keep the clients happy, show respect, and they will spend money on your products.

[efftee]

Look, again, it's about passion; that R users have as much as M users do, but when someone - a business - commits themselves verbally to a product (more than once) and the market users for it are waiting patiently, to hear anything, you don't leave them hanging out to dry with silence at Photokina....that is a wasted opportunity. Keep the clients happy, show respect, and they will spend money on your products.

 

I'm sure Leica could have done more about the R issue. Or perhaps they've learnt not let their mouth do the walking and say something they shouldn't... again! We'll never know the whole story from this side of the fence. The reality of the matter is what it is.

 

Leica has been around for a long time; survived a couple of WWs, and still holding its own against the face of really stiff never ceasing Japanese competition. I'd think they know a thing or two about keeping its clients happy enough to spend more money on their stuff.

[NZDavid]

Some people have said the M9ti is just "a design exercise". Design is about more than just superficial looks and style, it's about functionality and fitness for purpose and a lot more. I think German has about half a dozen words for various aspects of design, at least. Having visited Germany last year on a Government-sponsored trip specifically to see examples of innovative and sustainable design, I was impressed by the work of some very talented designers. Leica used to be at the forefront of innovation; it now seems to be struggling for ideas.

 

That's surprising. It's not as if there was a shortage of people saying what they want! Leica is lucky to have such a loyal and dedicated (if feisty) support base -- why then, isn't it listening?

 

Lessons for Leica, then, and only IMHO:

 

The company needs to listen to real photographers, also to engineers and designers.

 

It needs to communicate. It is amazing that nobody from the company responds on this forum! It's a fantastic opportunity.

 

Leica needs to reaffirm its core values. I am not sure what they are any more. Simplicity (concentration on the essentials), technical excellence, robustness, reliability, and longevity spring to mind. And some new values: Dare I suggest sustainability and the environment?

 

It does need to reevaluate its marketing, but if the product is good, it will sell.

 

Most important, Leica needs to offer some useful new products, specifically:

 

- upgraded X1 or possibly an EVIL camera, even a rebadged GF1. As it would be an AF camera with a smaller sensor and one rung down from the M series, it would not be a direct competitor.

 

- an R solution. This forum is clamoring for it, and those shouts will just get louder. Surely even a DSLR can't be too hard -- they are plentiful!

 

Just those two new products would be greeted with rapturous applause!

[bill]

Bill - I'm sorry to get personal about this...

 

No, Mani, you are not. I clearly missed the memo that announced your appointment as moderator.

 

I've told you what I think. If you want to know more, read my blog entry on the subject, there's a good chap.

 

Glad to see this morning that some cooler heads are speaking up, btw. All that handbag-swinging yesterday was creating a frightful draft.

[bill]

The company needs to listen to real photographers, also to engineers and designers.

 

It seems to me that they do, Just not in the way you want.

 

I do agree with you on the marketing and communications points. Leica management do themselves no favours for reasons that I simply cannot fathom.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[cbretteville]

The M9 rescued the company.

 

Not entirely correct, we can't really say that anyone saved Leica besides Andres Kaufman. Increased product sales helped turn their profits around. The revenue that probably made Leica able to afford making the M9 was made from the sales kicked off by the launch of the M8. It sparked an interest in Leica M bodies and lenses that hadn't been there for years despite it's issues.

 

Lets be honest, we're neither Leica board members nor part of Leica's management. We all may have an idea of what we would like Leica to offer in the market, but we don't really know anything when it comes to running Leica.

 

Carl

[viramati]

I wonder if the the Leica Management ever look at this forum seeing that we are the people that buy their products. I mean there seems to be an almost overwhelming expression of disappointment and almost disdain at the way they have produced this super rich mans camera and left the serious users without anything really tangible

[efftee]

The company needs to listen to real photographers, also to engineers and designers.

 

I'm sure they do. But given real world constraints, they couldn't possibly please everyone every time.

 

It needs to communicate. It is amazing that nobody from the company responds on this forum! It's a fantastic opportunity.

 

I seriously doubt any brand owner would want to engage its customer at a public forum like this. You'd think it's an opportunity but it's actually a trap.

 

Leica needs to reaffirm its core values. I am not sure what they are any more. Simplicity (concentration on the essentials), technical excellence, robustness, reliability, and longevity spring to mind. And some new values: Dare I suggest sustainability and the environment?

 

Why? I can't imagine one M9T could pop the brand out of its niche?

 

It does need to reevaluate its marketing, but if the product is good, it will sell.

 

Lots of good, great even, products fail in market. And even more crappy ones flourish. It's naive to think good products = good business.

 

Most important, Leica needs to offer some useful new products, specifically:

 

- upgraded X1 or possibly an EVIL camera, even a rebadged GF1. As it would be an AF camera with a smaller sensor and one rung down from the M series, it would not be a direct competitor.

 

Again, why? Rather than dilute its focus on areas just for the sake of competition, it's better to channel its energy on segments that they already have a firm footing in. I'd agree that the X1 needs an upgrade though, but I'm also quite sure one is coming, matter of time.

 

- an R solution. This forum is clamoring for it, and those shouts will just get louder. Surely even a DSLR can't be too hard -- they are plentiful!

 

Just those two new products would be greeted with rapturous applause!

 

David, really, 'clamoring' is not real demand and 'applause' does not turn into profits. If the R line was sustainable, it wouldn't have been canned. And I think Leica was wise to keep out of the DSLR space; it would be massacred by Canon, Nikon, et al. Imagine the ramifications then.

[stunsworth]

I wonder if the the Leica Management eve look at this forum seeing that we are the people that buy their products

 

Well, we are _some_ of the people that buy their cameras, but there are others - and I mean other types of customer. No one here seems to be saying that their main interest in Leica is as a collector, but these people do exist. For right or wrong (personally I think wrong) there are people who will buy Leicas with no intention of ever using them. My instinct is that all of these cameraas will sell, and at what cost to Leica?

 

If we believe what we are being told the design was done elsewhere, no doubt the titanium parts are made by someone other than Leica, and the guts of the camera are those of a standard M9. The margin on these cameras is probably very healthy.

[NZDavid]

efftee, like I said, IMHO. And of course, YMMV. You're right: They can't please everyone. But I hope Leica can glean something useful from this forum.

[Xmas]

And I think Leica was wise to keep out of the DSLR space; it would be massacred by Canon, Nikon, et al. Imagine the ramifications then.

 

Leitz used to compete head on with Canon and Nikon for rangefinders, the Ja were able to change to SLRs the bigger market, Leitz stayed a minnow. They could neither see the future nor change to compete. their SLRs never sold in volume like e.g. the Nikon F. They turned from a world leading company with a product that was hurting Canon and Nikon, to a handbag company.

 

Nikon and Canon were able to make good rangefinders more cheaply because they invested in production enhancements, Leitz took decades to adopt.

 

There are no lunches in the Solms canteen, these are now days shipped to the Cosina factories. the Ja have pooled their patents, Leicas have expired.

 

efftee, like I said, IMHO. And of course, YMMV. You're right: They can't please everyone. But I hope Leica can glean something useful from this forum.

 

Where lunch is being served?...

 

Noel

[StS]

I have spent more money with Cosina than Leica this millennium buying lenses, I don't complain about that at all, saved a fortune. I've no complaints about Cosina.

(...)

 

Sorry, but this gives a very good reason for Leica not to offer an R-solution. If they would have presented it these days, people would have said "thank you", would have recognized they still wouldn't get AF (or a very slow sensor-moving concept) and would have converted their Leica R-mounts to Nikon or EOS. And of course, due to the low run rates, this solution would have been way more expensive than a D700 plus conversion kits.

 

Stefan

[andybarton]

I wonder if the the Leica Management ever look at this forum seeing that we are the people that buy their products. I mean there seems to be an almost overwhelming expression of disappointment and almost disdain at the way they have produced this super rich mans camera and left the serious users without anything really tangible

 

You had something tangible last year - the M9 (and the X1, if that floats your boat)

 

You can't have something like that every year.

 

This M9 Titanium is just a bit of fluff and nonsense, and will be forgotten in a month's time.

 

And, yes, Leica do read _some_ of this forum.

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[andybarton]

Nikon and Canon were able to make good rangefinders more cheaply because they invested in production enhancements, Leitz took decades to adopt.

 

So, basically, they cheaped their product, is that what you're saying?

 

They also had a vastly different cost base when compared to Leica too.