less classic, more ergonomic

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I love the tentative draft, make it modular, put a larger battery into the grip, add an external power supply plus a flash sync and you will be on the right track ....

 

 

Bernd

 

....to a Fuji Powershot???

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[hankg]

I don't take the responses personally. Different strokes... I must say I much prefer the look of the Leica R6 and the Nikon FM to the current mega-DSLR's. However I do find that compact R6 sized modern designs like the Olympus E-1 or Pentax easier on the hand after a days use. I loved the R6 but my hand would cramp up after an all day shoot. It looks like some have had the opposite experience.

 

Now the Rollei TLR that was a camera that could not be improved.

[4season]

If a person must have a built-in handgrip, why not follow the Digilux 2 / DMC-LC1 example by simply making it part of the molded body covering and making it an OPTION?

 

I look at German cars in particular these days and I don't like the tendancy for newer models to be bigger, heavier and more gadget-laden. And cameras: You can get a small camera from Nikon or Canon, or you can get a professional camera, but you can't get a small, professional camera from either maker. So the M8 is kind of a unique beast, and let's not be so quick to lose that uniqueness.

[Tom A]

When I had the M8 for testing (August/September 2006) the need for a grip of some kind was obvious. Leica had a tentative design at Photokina, but it suffers from the same problem as the battery holder for the M-winder. It's a round post in front of the camera and that does not work.You can not get a steady grip on a slippery pole!

 

The reason for a grip is to stabilize the camera and for that you need to be able to actually hold the camera by the grip and have enough clearance that you hand actually "wraps" around the grip-handle without the tips of your fingers being pushed back by the body.

 

On a regular M you can handle it without a grip of any kind when using smaller, lighter lenses, but when you put on a Noctilux or a 75/1,4 or the 90/2 you need more support even when you hook a thumb behind the film advance.

 

The M8 is a bit fatter than the regular M and as it lacks the advance lever you have to "cramp" your right hand holding it. The slippery covering does not help and I did suggest to Leica that they make a horizontally ribbed covering availble to improve grip. That would suffice for light, small lenses but with the heavier lenses, particularly the Tri-Elmars in the "short" focal lengths you need some form of additional support.

 

At the moment I am working on a design for a M8 grip. It will be different from my Rapidgrip as it will have a full length baseplate and a slightly shorter grip. I am not planning for a battery storage in the grip part, but I am exploring the possibility to include a recess that would handle a SD card container (access to which would require that you uncrewed the Grip from the camera as having a base opening would add more complexity to the design (and cost) The spare card would also be exposed to moisture if you plunk the camera down in the spilled coffee from over exited chimping through the card in the camera).

 

I am trying to keep the weight down on the grip, even with the additional length of the full baseplate by cross drilling and machining out the "handle". One of my sketches does look like the grill of a 1936 Cord, a distinct "Art Deco" look. Once I have finished the designs and a couple of prototypes i will post pictures on Rapidwinder.com for comments.

Tom A

_________________

Tom Abrahamsson

Vancouver, BC

Canada

Rapidwinder & Rapidgrip

[carstenw]

Tom, your idea is wonderful! My personal wish would be for a traditional M-style grip with the full baseplate, like the M8 grip. I would buy a grip like that right away. I don't like the pole of the M8 grip.

 

Traditional shape:

 

Leica Camera AG - Photography - LEICA HANDGRIP M for MP & M7

 

Pole shape with full baseplate:

 

Leica Camera AG - Photography - LEICA HANDGRIP M for M8

[Enoteca]

The best - besides changing the M8-shape - is to use Luigi's half-case, which has a bold leather-grip at the right side, good protection for the the camera and will be removable if you want it. You will have good contact to the camera-body and (for me) you'll protect the display and even the RF from your own body-fat.

Excuse my bad English. You will find Luigis splendid work on: Leicatime Luigi Crescenzi : leica cameras leica compur mp elmar 250 reporter leicavit.

Manfred

[carstenw]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Manfred, I love the Luigi cases, but how do you get the pictures off the camera? It seems that it must be removed each time?

[Enoteca]

Carsten,

You are right. You will have to remove it all time. But it's easy:

I'll try to explain it in English - as we met in the International forum: the Luigi half-case (I received it last week) - covers the whole body, but it it allows you (sorry: zwei Druckknöpfe) to remove it very quickly. It is a very good harbour for the M8-body and a very (!) good grip at right side! I remove very often the SD-card and transfer the pictures only by card-reader, after short training, it was no problem, to remove the leather-shape and change card or battery. And, as I tried to say in my first post, it is a remarkable help to avoid the display and the RF to be touched to close by your skin.

Of course, it is not funny, to "wrap out" the camera every time, but the main purpose is, to protect it and to have a very secure and comfortable grip (without using the grip sold by Leica).

Manfred

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Hank I am waiting for the custom fit. yes sir that is what i want right there a electronic release built into the grip like the DMR. Perfect for me, of course i come from DSLR's since the beginning so this is very natural for me and IMHO still holds the M8 look with the grip just makes the grip functional and add a hand strap and I would be in dog heaven. Okay you can throw me against the wall now and start throwing the rocks.

[hankg]

Yes a grip and a handstrap has been my prefered set up on everything from a Linhof 23, ALPA 12 to my current Canon beast.

 

The problem with add on grips for the M is that the way you would hold the camera in its current form (sans grip) the trigger finger falls naturally to the shutter release . Add an add on grip and your hand rotates forward -more comfortable to grip the camera but it positions your trigger finger forward of the release it must bend back to hit the release (which is why cameras with grips have the release on the grip). I find the M very good better then the R6 to hold and fire but I find a camera with a properly designed grip and handstrap even better.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

My biggest issue is the three stage release in mechnical form. i am so used to electronic that it is throwing me off. I know Leica designed the M8 for M users but they held on to film idea's to strongly , not that I want a DSLR functions but there layout should have been more apparent . the top left LCD should have been bigger with battery, Remaining frames , ISO, EV value and than a electronic release built into a grip but more on the Front , look at the DMR a perfect spot for the release. You squeeze into the body than down which is creates shake more easily. The bottom plate i can deal with but surely a takeoff from the film bodies. So i just think they held on to some of these film idea's to strongly and needed more digital shooters opinions on the basic design and ergonomics.

[geoffreyg]

My biggest issue is the three stage release in mechnical form. i am so used to electronic that it is throwing me off. I know Leica designed the M8 for M users but they held on to film idea's to strongly , not that I want a DSLR functions but there layout should have been more apparent . the top left LCD should have been bigger with battery, Remaining frames , ISO, EV value and than a electronic release built into a grip but more on the Front , look at the DMR a perfect spot for the release. You squeeze into the body than down which is creates shake more easily. The bottom plate i can deal with but surely a takeoff from the film bodies. So i just think they held on to some of these film idea's to strongly and needed more digital shooters opinions on the basic design and ergonomics.

 

I'm OK with the three stage release - its kind of neat, once you get the hang of it. The DMR has great release positioning, but to be truthful, there are three of them on the camera. That's a bit overkill. The bottom plate is cute, but a pain - I wish it were hinged, and a bit easier on/off.

 

But the best thing is the ease of use, lightness and compactness. Hooray for all that!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Overall i agree and frankly all i really care about is the image but some fine tuning of ergonomics would have been a more digital way instead of the film standard,. I understand leica's thinking though and most folks are not like me that are new to the M line, there market is upgrading there existing M film shooters and that was more there priority. Mission accomplished now let's talk about the next one:D :D

[carstenw]

Manfred, from your description, it sounds okay to use it, in spite of taking it off to copy the pictures. After all, one takes many pictures per single removal. Hmm, I aesthetically I prefer an M6 grip with M8 bottomplate, but if that doesn't work out, there is a Luigi case in my future, I think. How do you find the reach to the shutter once the other fingers are wrapped around the grip?

[Your Old Dog]

I aspire to own an M8 because I don't like the large size of DSLR. I have a Nikon D200 with the 'anatomical' grip and it's fine because with a 20 pound lens on it there is less chance of dropping it. I'm banking on the clean lines of the M8 to make this camera more lean for carrying and the lack of any 'anatomical' grip to make my index finger work better on the shutter release.

 

I would like to see dial-up control of ISO as I would vary it for each shot if necessary.

[hankg]

From a marketing perspective, based on the posts here, adding a grip would probably be a very bad idea. I can understand how many M users would be afraid of creeping "DSLRism" transforming a compact elegant design into just another over-sized electronic gizmo.

 

However the ergonomics of a grip properly done is not marketing hype. When you hold the M (or the R6) your hand is cocked back, bent at the wrist. Your hand is scrunched (the bigger the hand the more tension) to hold the camera. With a grip your hand remains extended from the arm straight in the at rest position, your fingers simply curl in the manner Tom A described around the grip. It's a less stressful, more relaxed position for the hand. The grip shouldnt extend any farther out then the smallest lens so the footprint of the camera is no larger then it would be without the grip. For those with larger hands its more important to have on a small camera then a larger one.

[jaapv]

I would like to see dial-up control of ISO as I would vary it for each shot if necessary.

You won't do that too often. M lenses are so nice wide open that you'll be using 160 or at the most 320 (in dull weather or normally indoors) as standard in in allmost all normal shooting conditions.

Basically I find I just dial in the ISO once depending on the expected shooting conditions.

What I did do is make a user profile at 1250 for black and white.

[elansprint72]

If a person must have a built-in handgrip, why not follow the Digilux 2 / DMC-LC1 example by simply making it part of the molded body covering

 

The Digilux 2 does not have the moulded grip, it is a plain rectangular box.

 

I've followed this discussion with interest and, predictably, the died in the wool M-people will not accept that there can be any improvement in ergonomics even though we are now looking at a completely different set of engineering design requirements. Now that we do not have to drag a piece of cine-film from one container to another across the body, the designer has much more freedom than was apparently used on the M8. Sooner or later Leica designers will move away from the traditional M box, perhaps not with the M9 but maybe with the M10, might their design brief simply be: "must have a rangefinder, must fit M lenses"?

 

Those of you who think that you don't like "shaped" camera bodies- next time you are in your Leica dealership ask if you can handle a V-Lux1, forget your prejudices, forget that it has a big lens stuck on it, forget that is is plastic, not a real Leica, is cheap, is digital....etc, just feel the shape and see how your right hand fits around it- that is what ergonomics is about.

 

Cheers,

Pete

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[jaapv]

The Digilux 2 does not have the moulded grip, it is a plain rectangular box.

 

I've followed this discussion with interest and, predictably, the died in the wool M-people will not accept that there can be any improvement in ergonomics even though we are now looking at a completely different set of engineering design requirements. Now that we do not have to drag a piece of cine-film from one container to another across the body, the designer has much more freedom than was apparently used on the M8. Sooner or later Leica designers will move away from the traditional M box, perhaps not with the M9 but maybe with the M10, might their design brief simply be: "must have a rangefinder, must fit M lenses"?

 

Those of you who think that you don't like "shaped" camera bodies- next time you are in your Leica dealership ask if you can handle a V-Lux1, forget your prejudices, forget that it has a big lens stuck on it, forget that is is plastic, not a real Leica, is cheap, is digital....etc, just feel the shape and see how your right hand fits around it- that is what ergonomics is about.

 

Cheers,

Pete

 

I think he meant that one had a choice of camera shapes for the same innards. Anyway, I did handle the Vlux1 and hated id, it did not feel right in my hands. So for me it would not work. Ergomics is fine, but not the alfa and omega of design. Just ask yourself why a Morgan is a far more desirable car than a Citroen, and why the Audi TT (with about the worst ergonomic interior in industry) has a higher pricetag than a very functional Volvo wagon.

[terrycioni]

I couldn't agree more with Tom comments and his approach for a grip that will make sense. Having spent a fair amount of time shoot with the M8 - my first reaction is, it is slippery compared to the M4/M6/M7 and my hand does cramp while shooting for an extend periods.

 

This winter has not been kind to us on the west coast - and if you spend anytime outside some sort of shooting gloves are a necessity - I like and use LowePro (shooting) gloves with the little rubber nubs designed to manage camera slippage - and they are not enough for the M8.

 

Leo's Camera had the Leica M8 grip in-stock a couple of weeks ago and I just could not spend the money on it - it was expensive and poorly thought-out in my opinion. This is great news from Tom. As someone who owns Tom's rapidwinder (including my prized Barnack winder on a IIIF) and softies etc. I know this will be an excellent well thought-out addition to the M8. Sign me up for a couple of them Tom.

 

Cheers. Terry.