photokina - Your Questions To Leica

[Douglas Sharp]

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I would use for "darstellbar" the english word “presentable”. What means inside your developping engineer team you have sketches/ functionable working models , which you can´t present at this stage of developpment to a public outside. If they use "darstellbar" for me it is a sign that they work seriously on a solution.

 

==> http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-blog/de/2010/09/leica-fragestunde-photokina-das-protokoll/

 

What you mean is vorweisen or präsentieren. Nicht darstellbar is the engineers' way of saying "we took a look at the idea and shelved it 'cos we couldn't afford it in a month of Sundays, and it wouldn't be profitable even if we could":)

 

Cheers

Douglas

[mjh]

The mysterious “nicht darstellbar” has crept into the German language (as spoken by managers) a few years ago, implying the project or suggestion in question is not viable from a business perspective. You hear it all the time now, from managers and politicians mostly. You wouldn’t expect the man on the street explain to you that as much as he desired it, buying a new Mercedes was “nicht darstellbar” (to his wife, presumably).

[Douglas Sharp]

The mysterious “nicht darstellbar” has crept into the German language (as spoken by managers) a few years ago, implying the project or suggestion in question is not viable from a business perspective. You hear it all the time now, from managers and politicians mostly. You wouldn’t expect the man on the street explain to you that as much as he desired it, buying a new Mercedes was “nicht darstellbar” (to his wife, presumably).

 

 

Thanks for the confirmation Michael,

 

Unfortunately, a few people here on the forum translate with dictionaries published by the company "Wishful Thinking Books". (usually published in a new version every two years a couple of months before photokina).

 

Best wishes to the Hansestadt from just down the road in the Landeshauptstadt

 

Douglas

[Rick]

Putting some of the disparate pieces of information together:

 

The R is announced canned in 2009.

Leica puts their sparse resources into a new DSLR, the S1.

Leica announces that a "solution" may be possible or is in the works (something vague).

Stephan Daniels states something to the effect that Leica doesn't want to swim with the DSLR sharks.

Stephan Daniels states at Photokina that mirrorless designs are going gain market share from the bottom up (or something like that).

 

It seems to me that Leica does not want to produce/compete in the FF DSLR market. So, no R10 (DSLR). But, they seem to see the future in mirrorless designs. Right now their resources are going towards the current line but, at some point they could have a solution for the R-lens customers but, it is very clear that it isn't going to be a DSLR (R10) although there may be a mirrorless design from Leica that may offer hope to use legacy R-lenses. But, right now it is nicht darstellbar and there will be no announcement (one way or the other) until it could be deliverable. So, they aren't going to say anything now because, they don't know the future of technology or their exact design of their mirrorless solution... because they have their hands full right now... no kidding.

 

Just my opinion; you guys aren't going to get closure right now. Leica isn't going to come out and say it is dead or alive. They don't know but, it might get into a future mirrorless design. And, NO DSLR for Leica. They see themselves as shark bate in that market.

[mooky]

Why do people still have a hard time believing, or not comprehending what Leica has said many times, one way or another, that a Leica FF DSLR will not happen.

 

People - just start wondering about an R lens solution because more than likely that's as far as they will go with the R mount. Logically, they stay with some sort of R to M mount adapter that will work on a 'modern M' body of some sort. Their production of bodies and lenses is behind the demand, so even if they had/have some grand idea they can't promise 'squat' until things have stabilized.

 

It's a pain in the arse' but it's the way of Leica's world right now.

 

BUT PLEASE LEICA!!! Have ONE PR PERSON and end this word-tripping craziness!!!!!

[andybarton]

M9s are now in stock in many dealers, so they have caught up with demand for them.

[mooky]

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M9s are now in stock in many dealers, so they have caught up with demand for them.

 

I have heard that not all dealers have received their allotments, and that some customers who have ordered them have not received theirs. I'm sure they are catching up - or at least I hope they are.

 

But they really, really need to at least consider having a PR person to issue releases that can be discussed together, behind closed doors, to maintain a level of consistency of comment that represents the company.

[40mm f/2]

Good that I got a M9 and not a S2. Taking the price aside the S2 was interesting to me because of macro (just become available, maybe) and a tiltshift lens (as originally announced 30mm) but:

 

Ein Tilt-Shift-Objektiv ist derzeit noch nicht entschieden, die Nachfrage wird noch beobachtet und ausgewertet.

[Douglas Sharp]

Hi All,

 

Despite what Leica said about an "adäquat" solution, from a rational manufacturing and marketing point of view, the development of an R-Option is, IMHO, unfortunately dead on its feet.

 

The Leica R was a niche market when it was alive (and not exactly kicking), it became an albeit excellent last representative of the golden days of film and was sentenced to death by Leica to allow them to rebuild their company on a different, more future-oriented foundation. The DMR was a stopgap solution to satisfy digital users and, despite its excellent quality, never really offered any kind of competition on the mainstream market for DSLRs.

 

No company with any sense will address a distinctly finite market just to keep a dwindling group of customers who are hanging on to a dead and buried product line happy - and I predict that they wont, either.

 

Canon actually killed off a whole generation when they shifted from FD to EF mount - and they WERE big enough to think about their existing customer base.

 

We, as R-lens users, MAY be offered the tail end of a new development that offers something completely new with R-lens compatibility as a spin-off, but then, we are not really all that much better off than putting them on the front of FF-sensor Canon or Nikon cameras.

 

To me, the only solution that makes sense in any way is a platform that allows the use of multiple brands of lenses. But even then, though this is indeed a larger market, it is still finite - and I do not see it as either a market or product for Leica Camera AG.

 

This is more of a market for a courageous manufacturer like Cosina (Voigtländer) - resurrecting LTM and 6x6/6x7 folders and a completely manual SLR was a pretty brave move in a market where film is supposedly dying out.

 

I think too many of us have been victims of our own wishful thinking.

 

Leica, as a company, has finally got around to thinking rationally about its market(s), has defined its niches, its key products and its way ahead.

 

And, I would very much expect, will not be starting work on anything much more adventurous than keeping their current lines up to date.

 

They have what they need as a relatively small, premium segment manufacturer - premium entry to mid level V-Lux and D-Lux cameras, the X1 for the more adventurous, the M line as a premium full-frame system with unique selling points - size, superior quality, heritage and charisma, and the S-system that is gradually making itself felt in the professional segment.

 

Add to this their Sport Optics division, and you can see they have a nicely rounded portfolio without any need for new ventures.

 

By the time Leica gets around to planning any potential R-option themselves, the profits to be made from R-users will be approaching zero.

 

Sorry to say, the Leica R is dead. Any attempted kiss of life on the part of Leica R users is, IMHO, simply a waste of breath.

 

Cheers

Douglas

[sdai]

Well, at least the R users still have many adapters with various mounts to choose from. If Leica kills the S2, what are you gonna do with your S lenses?

 

Wasn't there anybody asking questions about the S at all?

[stunsworth]

If Leica kills the S2, what are you gonna do with your S lenses?

 

Carry on using them with an S2?

[sdai]

Carry on using them with an S2?

 

That's obviously one choice but for how long? you can't say "shoot film" as some R aficionados always like to boast.

[mjh]

No company with any sense will address a distinctly finite market just to keep a dwindling group of customers who are hanging on to a dead and buried product line happy - and I predict that they wont, either.

Quoting myself (#405): “Given that the dwindling market comprised of die-hard R photographers would most likely be too small to support a new camera, I suppose the “adequate solution” would cater for a wider audience, compatibility with R lenses being just a welcome side-effect.” An R solution that was nothing but an R solution wouldn’t stand a chance and thus won’t happen. Apart from that it is probably no use trying to second-guess Leica’s plans; judging from what little information we have it seems that Leica is still in the process of evaluating several possible directions and hasn’t decided yet which of these to take.

[Douglas Sharp]

Quoting myself (#405): “Given that the dwindling market comprised of die-hard R photographers would most likely be too small to support a new camera, I suppose the “adequate solution” would cater for a wider audience, compatibility with R lenses being just a welcome side-effect.” .

 

It must be the air here in northern Germany - my recent posting is a copy of what I posted on the LRFlex list on the 19th of September. Lots of R-Fans over there. Greetings to any other members hanging around the forum.

 

Viele Grüße

Douglas

[Posto 6]

In any event, the rapid development and miniaturization in the electronics field means that a solution will be found sooner or later. As time passes by, the technological impediments become secondary and relatively easily resolved. If some of the latest phonecams are anything to go by, the whole electronics structure will not be the problem. The need to integrate mechanical functionality for the R-lenses will be the main development requirement, not the electronics.

 

The intrinsic value of Leica equipment rests on the mechanical and optical platforms, and not on electronics, which have a very short (in Leica terms) half-life.Had Ernst Leitz Wetzlar been making the M9 (I doubt they would have gone ahead with an S2), there would be a very high probability that the sensor and related electronics would have been made upgadeable. There is a sinister long-term danger to Leica Camera's current business model that a way will be found to economically upgrade legacy (R and M) models making them suitable for digital FF photography. Such upgrading would be far cheaper than purchasing expensive new bodies every couple of years. Leica would be wise to stay in front of the curve on this!

[Douglas Sharp]

Aha - the mythical "digital film insert" rides again!

 

Seriously though, if someone does come up with a workable idea like that, I'll be one of the first to go for it.

 

What a pity that the Rollei 3003 was discontinued so long ago, it would have been the perfect candidate for a digital back.

 

Douglas

[mjh]

There is a sinister long-term danger to Leica Camera's current business model that a way will be found to economically upgrade legacy (R and M) models making them suitable for digital FF photography.

Rest assured this will never happen.

 

Also I believe that turning the M into a completely modular camera wouldn’t be economical or ultimately desirable. The more modular a camera is, the more expensive it needs to be. Modularity also places restrictions on possible future developments unless one is prepared to accept an increase in size and/or weight. The latter aspect is less of an issue when you are dealing with a comparatively large MF camera where there is plenty of space, but according to some the M9 is too big already. Designing a future M so that you could easily rip out the sensor and its associated electronics and replace it with something else would result in an even larger body.

 

Quite probably selling your existing camera and buying its successor will continue to be most economical way of keeping abreast with technological progress (if that’s your thing).

[mjh]

What a pity that the Rollei 3003 was discontinued so long ago, it would have been the perfect candidate for a digital back.

In 1987 Rollei had developed a digital back with a 1/2" 0.35 megapixel CCD – actually a still video back similar technologically to Canon’s ION cameras of about the same time. Alas, the resolution was deemed too limited for professional photography and the project was canned.

[menos I M6]

Aha - the mythical "digital film insert" rides again!

 

Seriously though, if someone does come up with a workable idea like that, I'll be one of the first to go for it.

 

What a pity that the Rollei 3003 was discontinued so long ago, it would have been the perfect candidate for a digital back.

 

Douglas

 

I was choking on my breakfast some days ago, when I read, that Rollei 35 compact cameras are back in production and the Rollei brand obviously resurrected.

 

There could be hope, to bring such a fine system as the reflex Rollei back to life for enthusiasts (see latest film offerings from Cosina).

 

Regarding Leica's announcements and PR, I am very, very happy, it is out and finished.

All the wishes, fantasies and hopes (also by myself) are now bursted and we will continue back to normal.

 

The Leica M line is the main attention project with magnificent glass and a great camera body to boot. Professionals get their S2 studio camera with a slowly growing lens arsenal and all other things can be done with the market leaders equipment in the form of Nikon and Canon.

I am happy, to not have to fantasize anymore about using a Leica DSLR for shooting sports, lowlight and Macro, where my Nikon system is far superior, just to have a cold, sweaty wakeup with a hit back to reality.

 

All best to the Leica company, they seem to be on a great track with the right management personnel, great employees and a good spirit.

Let them sort out the production back log and grow some liquidity, to move to the new company ground and look into one or the other new product.

 

I don't see groundbreaking products being introduced during the next 2 years from Leica. It will all be Leica M and S body improvement (glass, leatherette, LCD lighted frames,…) and lens introductions (S2) from now on. The rest will go with Panasonic's product cycles (maybe a mirror-less in one or two years).

 

Good on Leica. I am back shooting now, way too much internet rumors the last weeks - I have a huge backlog in editing and printing as well - back to work.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[rosuna]

The M digital cameras are not too large, for me, but I find them too heavy. If the M9 Ti is a design exploration valuable for future models, we hopefully see a weight reduction.