Summicron 1:2/90 question

[robeno18]

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I recently purchased a Leica/Leitz Summicron 1:2/90 camera lens (made in Canada), and am trying to get some information about it. The lens is somewhat older, and after doing a little research I think that it may have been made somewhere around 1959-1962. The lens is made of some type of metal - maybe chrome plated brass?

 

On the bottom of the box are various groups of letters that are meaningless to me - does anyone know what they stand for? They are as follows:

SEOOF

SEOOF-M

OESBO

INVOO

 

Thanks for any information!

[Xmas]

There are the five letter catalogue codes for the various options that you could get the summicron in - yours is probably a SEOOF, there should have been a marker on the box indicating the type of its contents...

 

Noel

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello robeno18,

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

Your box translates as:

 

SEOOF 90/2 Screwmount

SEOOF-M 90/2 Bayonet

OESBO 90/2 Lens Head, Viso, No Preset

INVOO 90/2 Lens Head, Viso, Preset

 

INVOO is sometimes OERDO

SEOOF-M is sometimes SEOOM

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[robeno18]

So would my lens be just one of those? It looks as if there might be a check mark by SEOOF, though it is quite faded. And if so, am I correct in thinking that it was manufactured sometime from 1959-1962? Thanks!

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again robeno18,

 

Your dates are good.

 

Your metals correct.

 

Please look at the smaller end of the lens.

 

Is it threaded like a jar of unsalted pistachio butter?

 

Or does it have a series of strange mechanical protuberances surrounding that smaller opening?

 

We need to know the answers to those two questions before I can answer you accurately.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again, Again,

 

I had another thought:

 

How long is this lens?

 

Appx 112mm more or less?

 

Its possible its around half of that or perhaps a little more than that if it is in a ZOOEP also known as a 16459, 62 or 63.

 

Need to know all from both posts.

 

Just a thought.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[Xmas]

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Hi

 

The manufacturing batch and hence the (approximate) date made is obtainable from the serial number on the lens.

 

Noel

[robeno18]

Michael - The smaller end of the lens is threaded both on the outside for the protective cap as well as the inside (for I don't know what - these are smaller threads that run for about 40mm or so up to the first glass lens on the inside). It does have a small trapezoid-like brass piece that sticks out the top of the inside part of this end. And yes, its unextended length is approximately 112mm, but it extends to about 130mm.

 

Noel - the serial number (from the larger end of the lens) is 1681247.

 

Thank you both for your help!

 

Rob

[bert c]

Hi,

 

according to the list with Leica Lens Numbers {Leica Camera & Lens pocketbook by Dennis Laney} your lens was produced in 1959

 

1959 > from 1645301 - 1717000

 

hope this helps.

 

greetings from NL

 

Bert

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Rob,

 

Sorry for the delay in my response. Sometimes there are things people have to do in between posts on the Forum.

 

The trapezoidal brass piece is the rangefinder contact from the lens to the hardened steel roller in the body. As you focus it goes toward and away from the body a small ammount, sometimes differentially depending on lens, with the movement of the lens barrel carrying the optics.

 

The reason for the sometimes differential movement with some different lenses including this one is: The brass piece will move a fixed distance between infinity and closest focus regardless of focal length.

 

The optics within the lens mount move greater distances if the lens is longer than the baseline lens (The one which has optics moving the same distance as that little brass trapezoid.) and less if the lens is shorter.

 

The baseline lens for this system is the 50. The brass doo-dad moves in and out as much as the 50mm lens mount goes forward and backward.

 

What goes from appx 112mm to appx 130mm is the collapsable lens shade. It is often convenient, as well as trendy looking, to say nothing about being a considerably smaller package, to keep it collapsed.

 

Not Necessarily a good idea. Please use it.

 

It does not offer the impact protection (The main reason to use a rigid lens shade not available for this lens.) that one might like, although it does offer some.

 

What it does offer is flare reduction under many circumstances (More important with this lens more than some others).

 

Speaking of flare reduction, that's what those apparent screwthreads are for inside the lens barrel toward the back.

 

Speaking of threads:

 

The threads @ the smaller end of the lens means you have a SEOOF, as the box seems to indicate. This was made for the Barnack (Screw Mount) Leicas.

 

Not to despair.

 

Easily adaptable to M models with an appropriate adapter.

 

Before we discuss this a thought: This screw mount model was made in small numbers. Probably about 500. Scarcity is an aspect of collectability. Condition and other things being factors as well.

 

Boxes, BTW, are collectable too (You'd be surprised). Don't clean it, repair it, or krunkle it. Do nothing to it. Better not even to use it once the lens is out until you decide what you will do about the collectable value.

 

You might want to explore the potential value to a collector if you are a user (some people are both) in terms of replacing what you have with an equal or better condition already M compatable equivalent lens and having some money left over.

 

If that's a consideration ask me. That's a different topic than we are discussing now. I could give you some guidelines.

 

Back to adapters.

 

There are three different ones which all work seamlessly. One of which will also key the appropriate frameline in the viewfinder.

 

The one which keys the appropriate frame for a 90 as well as keying the 28 on some M models is 14098. You can also use the 14097 designed to key the 50mm frame. It is sometimes also used with lenses wider than 50 with auxiliary viewfinders in the acessory shoe. The 14099 keys the 135 as well as the 35 when each is available in the viewfinder on various M models.

 

To put the two together is easy. First rule: As with most scientific instruments which cameras began as being: Brushed chrome/nickel/etc is for touching with fingers. Polished chrome/nickel/etc: No.

 

A general rule in various fields, not just photography. Not operant at all times. When in doubt a good rule to begin with if there is no-one to ask.

 

Also, please remember: The only silly question is the one you don't ask.

 

Now: Hold the outside of the adapter in one hand and twist onto the lens like the lid on the aforementioned jar of unsalted pistachio butter (The word's absolute best nut butter). Snugly, not over-tightly. The lens being the jar. Now bayonet the lens into the camera. Once you put this on you can just leave it forever. Or not, If you also have a Barnack.

 

Off is the reverse.

 

If I left anything out, talk to me.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

 

Whoops, thought of something: The lens head. Your lens head unscrews for use on a Visoflex w/ adapter 16462 or a Bellows II w/ adapter 16598.

 

Note the matching serial numbers or part of serial numbers on both the lens head and inside the mount (Usually there - talk to me if not. If not or if different can mean many things).

 

The lens head may have different configurations where the aperture numbers are.

 

We are not talking about the focussing ring at all.

 

If it is not a simple single moving ring which moves either the numbers or the dot and you see 2 dots one in front of the other near the aperture numbers on the lens barrel near the lens shade (not counting those dots separating the f stop numbers) talk to me.

 

Whew.

[robeno18]

Here's a question - Is the serial number on my lens (1681247) unique to this lens, or does it represent a certain model (would other lenses have the same number)?

 

Also, when I unscrewed this lens into two parts, I noticed a few numbers etched into the metal by hand, apparently (on the inside part). On the half with the glass, there is a 5 and a 47. On the other half, there is a 5 (made with maybe a yellow marker or pencil) and an X and what appears to be a 1247. There is also what appears to be a 3900 that has been scratched out.

 

I do not have a camera to go with this lens, so I would be interested in letting go of it. Do you know of a good venue for that (preferably auction-style)? Here are some pictures of the lens, as well as the box.

 

BTW - I'm not in a hurry for a response, and thanks for your thoughts!

 

Rob

 

P.S. I have attached some pictures of the lens (or at least I tried - hopefully they appear).

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Xmas]

Hi

 

The forum has a classified section, you can sell it there, if you don't have an e-bay history, you may do better than a camera shop, but I'd try a local Leica dealers as well. There is less hassle/risk with a dealer, sell it to the one with the best offer.

 

The factory technicians and later repair people may have scribed numbers, as the focusing part and the lens are matched (paired) perhaps by hand with a fine file so that the rangefinder is within production tolerances.

 

Some of the focus mounts have a two digit number (like xy) next to the infinity setting this is the nominal focal length of the lens to be screwed in (that is 90.xy, or 89.xy), but it does not mean that you can swap mounts and lens heads, they are life time pairs like swans.

 

Noel

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Rob,

 

I would like to discuss the lens in this post and what to do with it later.

 

Noel's advice is certainly correct for most cameras and most lenses but your lens is relatively rare and should probably be dealt with somewhat differently.

 

Looking at your pictures, the lens head of your lens, if it had been sold without a mount, would be an OESBO not an INVOO. As you have it it is called a SEOOF.

 

The box as well as the lens look just fine. Please review what I said about their care in the previous + this current Post.

 

When you try to identify by serial #, not only in this Post but in the world in general, it is often a good idea to not include the last 4 numbers, ie: 123XXXX. Sometimes with a shorter # you might leave out the last 3, ie: 123XXX. Just a thought.

 

Your lens head serial # is uniquely your's (or at least uniquely your lense's). It was copied from the lens head, in this case in part, onto the mount as well as re-copied inside the lens head. That was the 1247 and most likely the 47 you noted. Please remember the swans Noel spoke of. The other numbers I am not sure of.

 

Please do nothing to these numbers, not even the one which might be yellow pencil. Nothing.

 

I would like to clarify a point about numbers indicating the appropriate matching of lens mount to actual focal length of lens: Accurate utilization of the focussing systems for which this lens was designed requires tolerances within .1mm.

 

That is to say the nominal length is 90mm. This written appropriate to the needs of the system would be 90.0mm.

 

At the time your lens was manufactured there were not the laser guided milling systems and such available later.

 

Because of that concomitant with the need for the acuracy I described, there had to be significant hand fitting by experienced people in order to have lenses correctly actuate the rangefinder.

 

What was sometimes engraved on the focussing barrel of the lens, but I don't think @ the time of the manufacture of your lens, if it was at least 50mm in length, was a 2 digit number w/o a separating decimal indicating tenths of a millimeter of actual measured focal length of the lens head.

 

For example:

 

If your lens head was actually 90.0 mm it would read 00

 

If your lens head was 89.9mm it would read 99

 

A lens head of 90.1 would read 01

 

BTW: You will also sometimes see with certain lenses with wider variations. For example, it is not unusual to see nominal 50mm lenses engraved 19 or 22 meaning 51.9 or 52.2mm actual length.

 

I don't think the 47 inside was 84.7 or 94.7. Too much variation.

 

I could be wrong. Anyone know?

 

As far as I know, fitting @ an actual as opposed to a nominal distance, no matter how wide the variation engraved, only adds to the accuracy of focus and ability of a lens to accurately capture an image.

 

I think your individual lens is between 1 and 3 years too early to have these numbers actually engraved on the outside of the barrel. No problem at all.

 

The work was certainly done. It just wasn't made quite as public.

 

When these numbers are engraved on the barrel it will be done discreetly anywhere between the ft/m engraving and a significant number of degrees beyond on that part of the focussing mount.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again Rob,

 

Sorry for the delay with this, it's been a long week.

 

Now to the part about selling this if you decide not to keep it.

 

Please keep in mind: Noel's advice was very good in terms of regularly available things: Go to a number of dealers, look here in the Forum and so on.

 

Keeping in mind to ask a number of people to tell you what they are willing to pay after you have already looked at their retail prices for equivalent pieces while keeping in mind the person, as a business, buying from you must add something to what they pay to you to determine a retail price such that they can:

 

1. Buy another of what they just bought from you. 2. Pay for their store. 3. Pay for their home at home. 3. And lunch for their kids.

 

So there will be some difference between what they pay you and what they sell it for.

 

BTW: Not necessarily the entire mortgage payment with the difference between what they pay you and what they sell something for.

 

This lens is somewhat different and needs to be dealt with a little differently.

 

This is a somewhat scarcer lens, as I said, about 500 were made. As such it will probably be more difficult to find examples of equivalent ones to determine a reasonable price.

 

Furthermore, there may not be that many people in a position to offer you a reasonable ammount for it.

 

First a bit of perspective here: I don't know the value of this lens. I am primarily a (Shudder) Leica User. Not a Leica Collector.

 

But I do know something about finding the value of esoteric items such as your lens.

 

You see, whether you have a chair, a painting or a lens of equivalent desirability the same procedures are relevant.

 

The same, it should be noted for what Noel said in terms things of good quality which have a broad base of desirability. Change his photographic/etc to paintings or chairs, etc and his advice is still correct.

 

Back to this: The problem here is when you have an item of limited availability with significant demand it is sometimes hard to find a way to put those who want to sell it in touch with those who want to buy it in a manner that all involved benefit appropriately.

 

Here I think the answer might be to do research in terms of auction houses/dealers around the world, there are a number, that specialize in rare Leica, etc.

 

Keep in mind, this lens has the potential of an expanded audience that is of that breadth.

 

I would take a picture of the lens as if you were looking down @ all the numbers on the barrel when it was on a camera but not with it on a camera. One w/ the lens shade extended and one collapsed.

 

I would also take a picture looking at the fat end focussing on the writing on the front rim to make it as sharp as possible with the lens shade collapsed.

 

Do the box, all sides separately please.

 

These are the pictures you should be sending to those places you have researched and interviewed and decided that their estimates backed by examples of prior sales from auction houses or offers from dealers are appropriate to consider.

 

Then feel free to think about their offers and to talk to other people before making up your mind.

 

A genuine offer will be there tomorrow.

 

You know from previous posts that what you have is quite desirable for its condition, scarcity and age. All in the top categories.

 

BTW: I'd like to see copies of those photographs after you take them.

 

One more point: After you do all of this but before you commit yourself to one auction house or dealer you might consider subtracting from the potential realizable auction price, if you are confident it is ballpark, the costs of such things as catalog photographs (You need photographs, altho not the most expensive unless they are featuring this lens), commisions, etc or simply using the offer of a dealer and offering it first to people here at the Forum thru buy and sell for the net realizable ammount, shipping and insurance to be paid by the buyer additionally.

 

If you are comfortable doing that yourself.

 

Don't forget, if it were not for this Forum you would not have this information, as would not many other people in equivalent situations and it is important to support those things and people in the world who make it a better place.

 

Especially when they do so for you.

 

Well, that is all a lot to do but at least now you know what to do to deal with an important lens, sculpture or tea pot.

 

Any other questions, please ask.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again Rob,

 

Sorry for the delay with this, it's been a long week.

 

Now to the part about selling this if you decide not to keep it.

 

Please keep in mind: Noel's advice was very good in terms of regularly available things: Go to a number of dealers, look here in the Forum and so on.

 

Keeping in mind to ask a number of people to tell you what they are willing to pay after you have already looked at their retail prices for equivalent pieces while keeping in mind the person, as a business, buying from you must add something to what they pay to you to determine a retail price such that they can:

 

1. Buy another of what they just bought from you. 2. Pay for their store. 3. Pay for their home at home. 3. And lunch for their kids.

 

So there will be some difference between what they pay you and what they sell it for.

 

BTW: Not necessarily the entire mortgage payment with the difference between what they pay you and what they sell something for.

 

This lens is somewhat different and needs to be dealt with a little differently.

 

This is a somewhat scarcer lens, as I said, about 500 were made. As such it will probably be more difficult to find examples of equivalent ones to determine a reasonable price.

 

Furthermore, there may not be that many people in a position to offer you a reasonable ammount for it.

 

First a bit of perspective here: I don't know the value of this lens. I am primarily a (Shudder) Leica User. Not a Leica Collector.

 

But I do know something about finding the value of esoteric items such as your lens.

 

You see, whether you have a chair, a painting or a lens of equivalent desirability the same procedures are relevant.

 

The same, it should be noted for what Noel said in terms things of good quality which have a broad base of desirability. Change his photographic/etc to paintings or chairs, etc and his advice is still correct.

 

Back to this: The problem here is when you have an item of limited availability with significant demand it is sometimes hard to find a way to put those who want to sell it in touch with those who want to buy it in a manner that all involved benefit appropriately.

 

Here I think the answer might be to do research in terms of auction houses/dealers around the world, there are a number, that specialize in rare Leica, etc.

 

Keep in mind, this lens has the potential of an expanded audience that is of that breadth.

 

I would take a picture of the lens as if you were looking down @ all the numbers on the barrel when it was on a camera but not with it on a camera. One w/ the lens shade extended and one collapsed.

 

I would also take a picture looking at the fat end focussing on the writing on the front rim to make it as sharp as possible with the lens shade collapsed.

 

Do the box, all sides separately please.

 

These are the pictures you should be sending to those places you have researched and interviewed and decided that their estimates backed by examples of prior sales from auction houses or offers from dealers are appropriate to consider.

 

Then feel free to think about their offers and to talk to other people before making up your mind.

 

A genuine offer will be there tomorrow.

 

You know from previous posts that what you have is quite desirable for its condition, scarcity and age. All in the top categories.

 

BTW: I'd like to see copies of those photographs after you take them.

 

One more point: After you do all of this but before you commit yourself to one auction house or dealer you might consider subtracting from the potential realizable auction price, if you are confident it is ballpark, the costs of such things as catalog photographs (You need photographs, altho not the most expensive unless they are featuring this lens), commisions, etc or simply using the offer of a dealer and offering it first to people here at the Forum thru buy and sell for the net realizable ammount, shipping and insurance to be paid by the buyer additionally.

 

If you are comfortable doing that yourself.

 

Don't forget, if it were not for this Forum you would not have this information, as would not many other people in equivalent situations and it is important to support those things and people in the world who make it a better place.

 

Especially when they do so for you.

 

Well, that is all a lot to do but at least now you know what to do to deal with an important lens, sculpture or tea pot.

 

Any other questions, please ask.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Admin,

 

Sorry for the double Posting. They are both the same.

 

Please feel free to remove the second one.

 

I have no background in computers and only know what I have learned by myself, for the most part, altho I have had friends and family who have helped in setting up and with some problems which were too much for me.

 

Consequently, I do things such as touching certain magical buttons in inadvertant combinations the results of which are often unexpected.

 

The most common is: I will be wrtiting for an extended period of time and everything I am writing simpy mysteriously vanishes never again to appear.

 

Another is what happened here: Something I send arrives more than once.

 

I haven't got a clue how I do any of the above.

 

As well as a lot of other things which occur.

 

One day, If I ever have a life again, I will try to either take appropriate courses or better find someone to apprentice with (The latter being the preffered way to really learn anything).

 

In the mean time, once again my apologies and feel free to remove the second one. It is simply a re-sending.

 

I wish I knew how I did it.

 

One day I might want to.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[lars_bergquist]

Hi Michael. I cannot speak for the Moderators, only for myself as an Erfahrener Benutzer. But anyone who takes the kind of trouble you do, deserves lots of forgiveness. Especially as your information is so correct and well considered.

 

The old man from the Encyclopedic Age B.W. (Before the Wikipedia)

[robeno18]

Michael, thanks again for your posts - they have been very descriptive and helpful.

 

As for the lens, I checked around on some other sites to see if I could get an idea about its worth, and found that although it may be fairly scarce, it is not necessarily worth a whole lot. I think this is because this model is quite similar to other models of the time period, and the differences that it does have to other models may not be all that significant. Another thing that does not really help is that I have the chrome lens rather than the black version which is more desired/valuable. Here's a link to a lens like mine (identical, I believe) in a price guide:

Leitz: 90mm (9cm) f2 Summicron (SM, sliding hood) Camera Price Guide: estimate your camera value

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Rob,

 

That certainly looks like your lens. Screw mount even.

 

But:

 

I don't know if $1000.00 + or - in your condition seems right to me for a lens where there were approximately 500 made and the demand is apparently reasonably high.

 

This is one of the lenses the Leica mystique was built from.

 

It is in a highly desirable form (Screw Mount) in about as good a condition as anyone can expect to find it. With its box.

 

Please don't forget to take into account the box which can be a big deal for Leica people (You might be surprised as to how big of a deal).

 

What you found is one site. Sometimes one site, no matter how good, may not be reflective of the world elsewhere at that moment once and a while.

 

I would re-read the part I wrote about how to go about researching selling this in my other Post.

 

Once again, I don't know anything about camera or lens prices but also once again do know something about relatively rare things for which there is a specific demand.

 

I would listen to me.

 

I know it is hard and you are impatient.

 

I would not recommend this if I didn't think it was worth it and if I wouldn't do it myself.

 

Try some other references please.

 

Why not explore some of the dealers and auction sites brought up in the Historical as well as other portions of this Forum? There are dealers all over Europe and the rest of the World. This is a World market item. Please remember: It is just as easy to mail a package half way around the world as to the next village.

 

Thomas Edison, who used to live right down the street from where I live now and kept his horses a half block from where I grew up was once asked how long it took to invent the lightbulb. His answer was 10,000 failures.

 

I'm pretty sure this will take you less searches.

 

BTW: As to Black Paint and/or Removable Lens Shades in 90mm Screw mount Summicrons: Not too many in the next four solar systems.

 

Altho sometimes people mention them.

 

What you actually have in your hand is a good one. Don't worry about that or be in quite so much of a hurry.

 

You probably wont have this type of opportunity again after this is gone. Ever.

 

Altho I wish you, as well as everyone else, would.

 

Talk to me.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[diser]

Is this one the same? LEICA 90MM F/2 SEOOF SUMMICRON SILVER SCREW MOUNT LENS - eBay (item 360216571670 end time Sep-06-10 09:21:56 PDT)

$900 "buy it now". This is probably the regular price for these lenses even if there were only 500 of them.

 

Michael, by the way, where did you find an information about 500 items? Seems like there were other batches of the same screw-mount model... I see some information in Kadlubek's Lens Guide, it shows 490 items in one batch. Not sure which one exactly though.