jaapv Posted July 8, 2010 Share #81 Posted July 8, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) No it does not, And the M9 does not exposure lock, unless you switch the camera to jerky shutter release. What happens is that you set the camera manually to a certain shutter speed and aperture to get a certain exposure, and if you have auto-ISO adctivated the camera will switch ISO until you have the standard predetermined exposure again. It simply makes no sense to activate autoISO together with manual speed. If you set the camera to AE you can control the ISO indirectly with your aperture ring, but the camera will not show it. The best use of AI is with AE and exposure compensation, set to the back dial, allowing you to compensate on the fly. But it is hit or miss working that way. I even suspect that auto-ISO will pull your half-press locked-in exposure back by varying the ISO without warning, but I would have to make sure by experimenting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 Hi jaapv, Take a look here 5 days with my M9 - WOW! [but...]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jonoslack Posted July 8, 2010 Share #82 Posted July 8, 2010 No- the problem is that auto-ISO will frustrate your manual settings by adjusting auto-ISO to the uncompensated EV value. It simply does not work together because the camera reverts to automatic for one of the three parameters. Actually it works rather well (you've tried it and rejected it?). The problem with staying full manual with a light show is that the lighting can sometimes change much faster than you can change your manual settings - one option is what Leicashot said - i.e. wait until the light changes to a setting which matches your manual setting, and have two or three different planned settings. It's fine, but there are a lot of circumstances when you can't shoot (again, you don't want to come away from a concert with a million identical shots anyway). What I would do is to fix the aperture and shutter speed, with the ISO set at (for instance) 1600 ISO - then I'd take a few shots at one of the darker light settings and use aperture/shutter speed to get a reasonable setting (all manual you understand) . When you've got that set exposure use the exposure compensation to get that to match the meter reading (obviously in the same lighting conditions). Then you can put the camera on auto ISO with the maximum ISO setting the one you used for the manual shot above. Given the same light conditions as the original ranging shot, you'll get the same ISO - if it gets brighter suddenly, then the camera will use a lower ISO. It's not for every time, and I'm not for a second suggesting that it's the answer to life the universe and everything, but it can be very useful at a concert where the lighting is changing very fast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted July 8, 2010 Share #83 Posted July 8, 2010 Sorry, I never said the camera meter is always wrong, on the contrary, it is pretty good when used correctly. No discussion.What I am saying is the following experiment which I did just now. Set the camera manually to underexpose a grey card by say two stops. Then set auto ISO - take the same shot. The camera will have adjusted the ISO to show a 18% grey - just what you wanted to avoid by setting aperture and shutterspeed to your CHOSEN (under)exposure. The automation has taken over. See above - you set exposure compensation to accommodate for that, in this case you set your aperture and shutter speed, then set the exposure compensation to -2. Then you're good to go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 8, 2010 Share #84 Posted July 8, 2010 Well, yes that is more or less similar to what I said in the rest of the post you quoted, your system being more apt in those specialied circumstances.: The best use of AI is with AE and exposure compensation, set to the back dial, allowing you to compensate on the fly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted July 8, 2010 Share #85 Posted July 8, 2010 No it does not, And the M9 does not exposure lock, unless you switch the camera to jerky shutter release. What happens is that you set the camera manually to a certain shutter speed and aperture to get a certain exposure, and if you have auto-ISO adctivated the camera will switch ISO until you have the standard predetermined exposure again. It simply makes no sense to activate autoISO together with manual speed. If you set the camera to AE you can control the ISO indirectly with your aperture ring, but the camera will not show it. The best use of AI is with AE and exposure compensation, set to the back dial, allowing you to compensate on the fly. But it is hit or miss working that way.I even suspect that auto-ISO will pull your half-press locked-in exposure back by varying the ISO without warning, but I would have to make sure by experimenting. Jaap, it makes sense: it's what you want to prioritize. You want Aperture or Speed priority? choose manually what you want and let the camera variate ISO for correct exposure/sensor gain. Speaking about compensation in fully manual is a mistake. Compensate to what? Note here, that ISO levels are a full stop, whereas your f/time changes are half stops. That means the camera will allow you even in auto ISO half stop compensation. (I meant offsetting) I don't get all this demonization of the A-mode vs the manual one. They are essentially the same things. Furhermore in an M9 where you can have direct access of EV steps it is even more identical Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 8, 2010 Share #86 Posted July 8, 2010 Two schools of thought here, I guess. those that use the M9 more in M6 mode, and those that like to have more automation. I don't think I'm demonizing AE and AI, I'm just saying that I feel the user has more control when going to full manual. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicashot Posted July 8, 2010 Share #87 Posted July 8, 2010 Advertisement (gone after registration) A is not the same as Manual. Seriously tell me how they are the same? One is locked I to a manual set of values and one constantly is changing values when the reflected light entering the camera changes, causing it to be reliable under stable lighting. It's a pretty simple concept Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicashot Posted July 8, 2010 Share #88 Posted July 8, 2010 Listen: if you can evaluate light conditions of a shot as easy as you claim here, then it is equally easy to work with the light meter, compensate and do your work even faster. I am not talking about being precise, because you are precise both ways, and maybe even more precise if you use the light meter. You limit your work with only 3 different EV settings. How can you guarantee only 3? Anyway all this sounds too complicated to me. But whatever suits everyone. As for the sports photographers you mention, they all use dSLRs that have superfast cpus and asics that prior shooting, those chips evaluate the scene and matrix meter everythng. All before you can even blink your eye. I doubt these photographers stand for a msec to think about exposure. On a Leica M you have to do all this work by carefully placing that central patch where you want to lock exposure. Otherwise it's off You missed the entire point if what I was saying. The worlds top sports photographers bypass the auto exposure and shoot manually in the most challenging situationsunder ever changing light Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicashot Posted July 8, 2010 Share #89 Posted July 8, 2010 First of all many thanks for this very interesting thread !! What I don't understand here leicashot, is how you can prepare for lighting conditions at a concert (which is part of Jono's premise). It is quite different to having the well-known lighting conditions you mention for sports. Unless you have been to the same concert many many times and the system is computerized, you cannot know how the lighting will change within the next few seconds or minutes. I'm guessing Jono is talking about more dynamic type of concert, not classical music where musicians and lighting is more static. Ian Ok I guess I should show some proof in my discussion. I shoot major events for a living, with many concerts big and small. See my work here: Kristian Dowling Photography - see performance. At the end of the day auto iso is something I cannot trust as the camera has no idea what I am trying to expose for in the frame and it still only measures reflected light and can be easily tricked. Instead I trust my own instincts and have great success. Sure I make mistakes and come out with some bad frames but it's worth the gamble IMHO. Everything on my website was shot in manual exposure Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 8, 2010 Share #90 Posted July 8, 2010 Wel, well, chapeau and deep bow - marvellous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicashot Posted July 8, 2010 Share #91 Posted July 8, 2010 As a final comment, may I say that I am not criticizing that people aren't using manual all the time, only trying to show that it can be used effectively. Whether people feel its best for them or not is their own decision. At the end of the day manual exposure means very little if this happens to you - unless you're looking into getting into underwater photography ;-) Thanks for the conversation guys, was interesting YouTube - Wedding Photography Fail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
giordano Posted July 8, 2010 Share #92 Posted July 8, 2010 YouTube - Wedding Photography Fail Makes a strong case against baptism by immersion! BTW, Kristian, I couldn't work out how to stop the irritating music on your site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scola77 Posted July 8, 2010 Author Share #93 Posted July 8, 2010 See my work here: Kristian Dowling Photography WOW! Impressive work. Thanks for sharing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted July 8, 2010 Share #94 Posted July 8, 2010 A is not the same as Manual. Seriously tell me how they are the same? One is locked I to a manual set of values and one constantly is changing values when the reflected light entering the camera changes, causing it to be reliable under stable lighting. It's a pretty simple concept The procedure differs. The end result is the same. Both systems in the end, decide 2 and a half values (ISO). If your lighting conditions change you also need to move either dial to accommodate the change. The only luxury the manual gives you is that you forget about compensation. There can also be a third road to exposure and that is the way the X1 works in fully Auto: when you set both dials in A, and lock exposure the camera allows you to pick from long list of f/time pairs of values. All these 3 procedures yield the same results and that is a specific exposure level. Anyway, Kristian your photos are indeed exquisite, real nice work. Kudos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicoleica Posted July 8, 2010 Share #95 Posted July 8, 2010 BTW, Kristian, I couldn't work out how to stop the irritating music on your site. I just clicked on the 'stop' button (Up at the top on the right, by the volume control.), and the music stopped. Kristian, lovely images. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicashot Posted July 8, 2010 Share #96 Posted July 8, 2010 Makes a strong case against baptism by immersion! BTW, Kristian, I couldn't work out how to stop the irritating music on your site. haha, top right hand corner there are options to turn it off ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicashot Posted July 8, 2010 Share #97 Posted July 8, 2010 The procedure differs. The end result is the same. Both systems in the end, decide 2 and a half values (ISO). If your lighting conditions change you also need to move either dial to accommodate the change. The only luxury the manual gives you is that you forget about compensation.There can also be a third road to exposure and that is the way the X1 works in fully Auto: when you set both dials in A, and lock exposure the camera allows you to pick from long list of f/time pairs of values. All these 3 procedures yield the same results and that is a specific exposure level. Anyway, Kristian your photos are indeed exquisite, real nice work. Kudos Thanks guys. I initially preferred to be anonymous but I couldn't keep talking it up, so to speak, without showing some pudding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicashot Posted July 8, 2010 Share #98 Posted July 8, 2010 The procedure differs. The end result is the same. Both systems in the end, decide 2 and a half values (ISO). If your lighting conditions change you also need to move either dial to accommodate the change. The only luxury the manual gives you is that you forget about compensation.There can also be a third road to exposure and that is the way the X1 works in fully Auto: when you set both dials in A, and lock exposure the camera allows you to pick from long list of f/time pairs of values. All these 3 procedures yield the same results and that is a specific exposure level. Anyway, Kristian your photos are indeed exquisite, real nice work. Kudos Thanks. Actually there is one difference. In manual you are adjusting to what 'you' think the exposure should be. With exposure compensation, you are adjusting or 'compensating' for what you believe the camera meter will do wrong. One method is precise and stable and each image exposure values will remain constant until you make changes. The other will fluctuate inconsistently depending on the amount of light reflecting back into the camera. Exposure compensation doesn't guarantee stable results, it still changes, even under constant lighting. This is why in film-making in motion and stills, all cameras are ALWAYS set to manual exposure. Anyway great discussion guys. i'm out :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraz Posted July 8, 2010 Share #99 Posted July 8, 2010 Thanks guys. I initially preferred to be anonymous but I couldn't keep talking it up, so to speak, without showing some pudding. We appreciate you trusting the community here to expose yourself here Amazing images. Now for the reason you wanted to remain anonymous, do you have internships or apprenticeships for someone to train under your wings? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicashot Posted July 8, 2010 Share #100 Posted July 8, 2010 We appreciate you trusting the community here to expose yourself here Amazing images. Now for the reason you wanted to remain anonymous, do you have internships or apprenticeships for someone to train under your wings? haha, well not exactly. Gaining access to events or sets I work on is the hardest part. I occasionally use assistants on portraits shoots but thats about it. I'd love to run a training program one day but have more to achieve and learn before then. If you have any questions, please feel free to email me and I'll do my best to help. Kristian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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