Dual M8s - Pros, cons, and opinions

[wstotler]

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Hi! About a week into my M8's shutter repair I discovered that my photographic ambitions had been stomped--here I was, cancelling shoots and finding my backup (an M6TTL with its film workflow) would introduce too much post-processing work to be acceptable.

 

Thanks to another forum member, I was able to acquire a low-actuation, excellent condition chrome M8 very quickly at a reasonable price.

 

Now that I have two matched M8s, I've been enjoying real benefit--and want to share a bit about pros and cons.

 

 

Pros

----

* Security. If one has a failure, another is available to continue shooting. Whether it's a battery kerfluffle or whether it's a serious failure.

 

* Two complimentary rigs, both available simultaneously without lens change:

- 35/50

- 18/35

- 50/90

- 50/50 vintage

- 90/135 + Visoflex

- 35/21 + Infrared 093 filter

- 35/35 + SF24 flash w/sync cord

--> Instant access to the secondary focal length/rig is not just a time-saver, it actually encourages use of the second rig and additional exploration of the subject. As a time-saver, it's easy to swap lenses on the "primary" rig and leave the secondary rig (Visoflex, IR, flash) alone--this is a big relief and keeps the shooting moving.

 

* Roughly double the number of shots before card/battery swaps.

 

 

Cons

----

* Initial cost for second body, second case, and second Thumbs Up.

 

* Two cameras can be slightly unwieldy to wear at once. (Yes, many shooters do this all the time and with monster-sized cameras/lenses, but it's new to me.) Can't leave one in the bag or dual-shooting pros are reduced to security.

 

* One less "slot" in the camera bag. (Don't want to upsize the bag.)

 

* Slight increase in kit weight.

 

* Slightly higher insurance premium.

 

* Potential for more equipment to be lost/stolen at one time.

 

* One more body to maintain--window cleaning, sensor cleaning, rangefinder calibration, etc.

 

* Synchronization. Less a con than an extra step. Synchronized dates/times. Assigning different shot numbering (L10x for one, L50x to the other) and keeping cards marked. At time of shoot verifying settings are matched.

 

 

The pros far outweigh the cons, IMO. In terms of a way of working, it's awesome to just switch *matched* bodies when shooting to instantaneously use the "alternate" lens by just lifting the second M8 to the eye. "Wow" is an understatement with regard to improvement of way of working. (For me, anyway.)

 

--> OK, with all of that said, if you're a dual M8 shooter do you have any additional tips to add about dual M8 shooting? Suggestions/tricks? Comments?

 

Cheers!

Will

[tbarker13]

You certainly make strong arguments for a matched set.

I actually went a different direction, selling off some of my M stuff and buying a Nikon D700 and a 35-70/2.8 and a 70-200/2.8 lens.

Not a true backup (since they use different lenses), but I find that I have greater peace of mind these days.

I find them very easy to use together - and love the much longer battery life on the D700 along with the stronger telephoto abilities.

[jplomley]

I used a pair of M8s, one with the 24/2.8 Elmarit Asph and the other with the 75 Cron Asph. I just sold one of my M8s to buy an M9, and that has now royally screwed up my pairing. I may have to sell the other M8 to get a second M9 to restore order in my universe.

[doubice]

Excellent points, Will.

 

During my film days, I always carried two bodies; whether it was an M3 and an M2, M4 and M5 or, M6 and M7. Each body with a different film or, just different lenses so that one could just grab a body with the right lens and not waste time changing.

 

I was considering an M9 to go along with my ‘early adopted’ M8, but decided that I really got used to the ‘cropped’ format and that it will be much more economical to simply add another M8 or M8.2. The M8.2 will probably be the body I’ll go with, I prefer the tighter frame lines as I had my original M8 upgraded to new shutter and new frame lines as well. Not to forget - a used M8.2 is half the price of an M9…… Also - I won’t have to worry about removing the UV/IR cut filters from the lenses on the M9……

 

Best,

 

Jan

[glenerrolrd]

I ve used a pair of matched camera bodies for as long as I can remember. Today its 2 x M9 s . I do a lot of street shooting and you simply don t have time to be changing lenses to catch an opportunity. Thats the most important benefit .

 

Typically in a city I start with a 28 and a 50 and will often carry one or two additional lenses in a vest,jacket ,shirt or small bag. I don t like a bag with two cameras because I need to feel the strap on the camera thats not in my hand. This takes some practice as one camera normally is just hanging from your shoulder . Ok now bend down to get a lower camera angle (do this over carpeting). Too control both bodies say in a crowd you pull them into your chest (in front of you). If you go with two bodies get UpStraps ..the only strap I know that never slips off your shoulder . So handling is a consideration .

 

A DSLR and an M sounds good but it gets in the way of consistency in visualizing,framing and focusing. I tried this for years and finally concluded that its one or the other for a specific shoot.

 

One nice thing about the M8 s is that with a 135 you can have a 180FOV so you have decent range which is where I most miss my DSLR.

[wstotler]

Thanks everyone for sharing about your setups and experience. Anyone else? Feel free to hop in.

 

Interesting comment about ditching the camera bag and using an UpStrap. I'm doing OK with the bag I have (a small Artist & Artisan Penn's Pad and Pencil Satchel), and the Luigi straps seem to be OK, too, but I'll certainly think more about why I'm still carrying the bag AND look into the UpStrap.

 

On my shoot last night I kept one M8 w/CV35 f/1.2 at the ready and swapped lenses on the other camera--swapping between a 50 f/3.5 and 18 f/3.8 w/finder. The CV35 f/1.2 is a large lens (for a Leica), but the Summicron, which would have been lighter, ended up on the shelf. The 90mm Type II (1964, large, heavy) stayed in the bag. I should probably stop bringing it altogether. I just don't use the damn thing, even though I really like it and pull great shots out of it. <sigh>

 

Here's the interesting thing. It's hot here and people are out and about. On my shoot last evening, I was noticed much, much more than usual. Head nods. Waves. Friendly noticing. It was very unusual. (The whole stealth thing, IMO, is nonsense. They're going to see you. It's what they think about it when they see you that works for or against you.) I think it's because I had *two cameras* out with the small camera bag. The noticing was like this: "I wonder for whom he's shooting photography?" not "Why is he snapping photographs?" Seriously. It was like the nod you give to the news people when they're in the neighborhood--they're there on business, so it's OK. As opposed to little 'ole me with one camera--who is *that* guy? I'll have to see if this is an isolated case or repeats--but if it does repeat, the only factor that's changed is the addition of camera two. Hey--it sounds silly. But I know the level of interaction I got was way up and of a very different quality than normal.

 

--> Can anyone confirm?

 

Anyway, thanks for your comments.

 

I hope this thread is helpful to people considering a second body for shooting. The pricing on used M8 classics (what I have) is very reasonable right now. If you shopped carefully, you could buy two of them and an older 35/50 Summicron set for the cost of one M9 body. (Not knocking the M9. Just saying.)

 

Cheers!

Will

 

BTW, as an aside, my favorite line of the shoot last night, from the subject to me: "My camera was like $200. But I know some photographers that have spent as much as . . . . $1,000." Also, she is the first model with whom I've had the pleasure of working (15+ now) that's asked about the camera--there being two of them shooting her instead of just one. Coincidence? Maybe.

[norm_snyder]

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Will--I've had the same experience when carrying two bodies. I suppose that people see the extra gear as proof that I must be taking "serious" pictures, and are probably less, not more suspicious. There is certainly no question that I'm there to shoot photos, and I've often been asked who I'm "shooting for."

 

Carrying two can be a problem, I suppose, as inevitably they end up colliding with one another from time to time. A few marks, bright spots, but since my bodies are taped up a bit, it's minimal. I don't bother with a bag, now, and the lens spread depends on where I am. The bag just slows me down, and I find that if I've got a lot of gear, I spend too much time thinking about which lens I want, and not enough shooting. In downtown Santa Fe last week, the streets are fairly narrow, so it was C-V 15mm and either 28 or 35. Sometimes I'll use 21-35 combo, which interestingly are the same two lenses I used w/ my M6 bodies--I just like the images. I also have shot this way for years, and at one time, even traveled with three bodies [in film days it was 21-35-90].

 

I find the Leica straps work fine, and don't slip off.

 

Cheers,

[thompsonkirk]

IMO we need backup bodies because Leica service is so slow.

 

May I suggest one camera on a shoulder strap & one on a wrist strap (or in a tummy/fanny pouch when not in use)? With a shoulder strap & a wrist strap you can literally drop one camera & pick up the other – perhaps even faster than using a zoom lens.

 

Also I'd like to second Jeff's advice: an M8 + M9 pair is a pain in the $%^#.

 

Kirk

[norm_snyder]

I, too was considering selling one M8 and adding and M9, and have been wondering about that combination. Tonight, I was shooting in a local jazz club, mostly at ranges of less than 10 feet, often much less, using two M8s w/ 28 and 75 f2's and also a 35mm Nokton. Not having to change lenses, except maybe during a set break, and having the same FOV w/ superimposed frames in the finder is the way I've worked for years, first w/ M2's, and in fact had trouble at one point when I was working w/ an M2 and M3 concurrently. Sounds like I need to rethink the M9, or plan on getting two [ouch].

[jplomley]

Norm, my plan is to keep my 75 Cron Asph on the M8 and use my 35 Cron Asph on the M9. The 24 Asph will be my wide angle solution on the M9 when needed. Problem is I also have a 21 Asph, so I may flip that for an 18mm. Sure wish Leica had offered a full frame solution in the first place.

[norm_snyder]

Thanks for sharing the plan, Jeff. Also, I really enjoyed your site. I have to rethink how these lenses might work on various bodies. Hmmn...So I could keep the 75 on the M8, my 35 Pre-Asph on M9, 15 C-V on M8 [for 21 Equiv.], 28 on M9--Decisions, decisions. I guess it's inevitable, but suspect that eventually [budget permitting], I would end up with two M9s. I really enjoyed the Cuban photos. Was this a single visit, shooting film and digital, or multiple visits--some shooting film and some digital? Great stuff.

[jplomley]

Cheers Norm for your feedback on the website. It is going to be overhauled shortly so that the images may be viewed larger.

[ndjambrose]

...with a shoulder strap & a wrist strap you can literally drop one camera & pick up the other...

 

I do something similar. I always shoot with two cameras - have done for years. But I have no straps on them at all, just a small Billingham over my shoulder with the top flap folded down. Drop camera in slot, pick up the other.... ultra fast, nothing to drop or bash, and both cameras can be easily secured if needed.

 

Plus, since there's only ever one camera visible, it reduces attention. If people were to notice me and think I was shooting for a paper, I'd see that as a bad thing.

[wstotler]

I do something similar. I always shoot with two cameras - have done for years. But I have no straps on them at all, just a small Billingham over my shoulder with the top flap folded down. Drop camera in slot, pick up the other.... ultra fast, nothing to drop or bash, and both cameras can be easily secured if needed.

 

Plus, since there's only ever one camera visible, it reduces attention. If people were to notice me and think I was shooting for a paper, I'd see that as a bad thing.

 

 

Neil,

 

Thanks for the insight on your process. I have a shoot Saturday and I'm going to try your technique. I'll repeat on Sunday and see how that goes.

 

The critical "fear of dropping" time is putting the camera on, taking the camera off, and managing straps. Duh. Get rid of the strap. Need to rest? Drop the camera back into the bag. Duh. OK. We'll see how that goes as I am always wearing the bag. (Small A&A.)

 

From your working documentary POV, I understand completely about the visibility thing--and thank you for sharing--but I get seen and noticed and I'm not shooting "street" or news, so it's OK with me. I'd rather be noted by onlookers as "belongs--working" than "WTF?"

 

Thanks!

Will

[norm_snyder]

Will--

 

If you are going to use the M8 without a strap or wrist strap, the Thumb-up device makes holding it quite a bit more secure. I find that, while I use "shoulder/neck" straps on both cameras, and usually do not use a bag, I wrap the strap of one around my wrist, and can then "drop it" leaving it hanging, if I need to get the other body, slung over the opposite shoulder. Still--I suppse the cameras are more likely to get occasional mild bumps and bruises this way.

 

If you are going to work with an open case, then a deeper, flatter one works better for me. Billinghams for some folks, but I like the small Domke satchel. That way, gear doesn't tip out, and the cost is quite reasonable.

[chema]

I would like to introduce my own version of two bodies.

I usually take my M8 together with a M7 loaded with the eternal TRI- X.

Does anyone else in the forum combines digital and film in this way?

 

Best regards and excuse my poor enghish.

 

chema

[glenerrolrd]

I have seen a variety of techniques to using 2 bodies and have tried many of them.

 

My objective when working on the street is to be able to use (and try ) two different FOV in a shooting situation. I try to build around the wide angle (21 to 35 ) and then add a normal to short tele(50-90). With the M9 when I know I can get close (like a parade,festival,event where photography is expected and accepted) I go with a 28 and add a 50 for a little reach.

 

I would generally carry one to two other lenses in a jacket,vest or bag. I don t try to hide but I also don t try to bring any undo attention to myself . I try to act as respectful as possible (no threating quick movements) but also with confidence that I know what I am doing. My objective is to be accepted and allowed to work a subject...taking 6-10 captures ..without unnecessarily bothering someone. A large DSLR with a big zoom lens and a massive hood bothers people when you are 5 ft away and point it at them . But the real point is that I might want a few captures with the 50 and then if things are progressing well I would move closer with the 28 . No time to change a lens once you start a series .

 

The issue of the strap depends on how you carry the camera. Too use two bodies quickly ..I need at least one hanging only on my shoulder . No hands . One body in my right hand and one on my left shoulder . Now here is the test ....try moving around the subject....bend down,go to a knee ,shoot low with the camera near the ground then high over your head. Where is that 2nd body?

 

The Upstrap is the only strap I ve found that is secure enough to move . You need to learn not to swing the bodies but the strap can t slide . I use the Luigi half cases but his straps will slip if you move as in the above example. He needs a non slip facing on the shoulder pad . The Leica straps are good the Upstraps are better. (if you use an upstrap be sure to tape over the metal fittings or you will scratch up your camera).

[norm_snyder]

Chema--Welcome to the forum that has been re-energized by the emergence of the M9 and the result that more and more people have been coming into, and invigorating the M8 forum.

 

I completely agree about using digital and film alongside one another. While I am principally shooting digital these days, on a recent trip, I worked with two M8s, with 28 and 75mm, and one M6 [loaded with XP2, in my case] with a 35. I prefer the film, but also like the workflow with digital, since 90+% of what I shoot is black and white. No cases, knowing that the gear might get scarred a bit.

 

Roger--I agree and use the same work method, with one body, with the strap around the wrist, and one body hanging from the opposite shoulder. I also agree about the need to not let the bodies swing, as this has certainly happened to me, and was part of the reason that my 28 mm Summicron spent some time in New Jersey having the [dinged] focusing ring replaced [fortunately on warranty, and kudos to the service department!].

 

Even when, at some intervals, II worked with reflex cameras [F1 Canons, then F3 Nikons, then Pentax 67!} I worked with two bodies, and never liked zooms. Inevitably, though, I kept coming back to my M2's and the 35mm and 90mm Summicrons I've had for more than a few years, and a 35mm 2.8 Summaron, before that. So I continue to shoot with two bodies, and if I don't make a big deal out of it, I've found folks forget I'm there, shooting.

 

Cheers,

[wstotler]

I do something similar. I always shoot with two cameras - have done for years. But I have no straps on them at all, just a small Billingham over my shoulder with the top flap folded down. Drop camera in slot, pick up the other.... ultra fast, nothing to drop or bash, and both cameras can be easily secured if needed.

 

Plus, since there's only ever one camera visible, it reduces attention. If people were to notice me and think I was shooting for a paper, I'd see that as a bad thing.

 

Neil,

 

Just wanted to follow up and say this is my exclusive way of working now--no straps. I've successfully used this technique on seven shoots and, damn, it works. Who'd have thunk it? Thanks so much!

 

Two M8s, both strapless (but with half cases) and no wrist straps, either. When the M8 is out of the bag, it's in my hand and stays there, as though attached. (I have a small A&A bag). Often, the bag comes off, gets put down.

 

I can only say that I've eliminated a significant amount of futzing around with the gear--packing the cameras with their straps, pulling the camera out carefully with its strap, getting straps caught around things, untangling straps, figuring out how to wear the strap depending on how I want to shoot, strap too long, strap too short, strap dangling the camera--thinking: where is it?--etc. OK. So maybe I'm being too hard on the straps, but it's now *one less thing to think about* and it's a good thing.

 

I'm completely comfortable walking around just holding the camera. My arm doesn't get tired and I'm always ready to shoot. Always *thinking* about shooting because the camera is in my hand (not that I wasn't thinking this way before, but it helps to be holding it).

 

Thanks again for the "contrarian" view--superb.

 

Cheers!

Will

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Printmaker]

I would like to introduce my own version of two bodies.

I usually take my M8 together with a M7 loaded with the eternal TRI- X.

Does anyone else in the forum combines digital and film in this way?

 

Best regards and excuse my poor enghish.

 

chema

 

I often have my M4 and a few rolls of film with me as a back up to my M8. I even have two 35mm lenses and a 50 DR cron in my kit. But most of the time my M8 just clicks away and the film never gets shot.

 

Sometimes I use my M8 with a 21 or 35 around my neck and a D2x with a 80-200 over a shoulder but that is a pain. Its heavy and awkward. These days I find auto everything vs rangefinder to be a bit taxing on the old gray matter. In the old days it was the M4/35 combined with a F/105. That was an easier combo to manage. There was a certain Zen to that combo. The Leica saw what was happening and the Nikon saw who was doing it.

 

I'd love a Zen pair of M9s: one with a 35 on one and a 90 on the other. But that will have to wait for my bank account to recover. So... the op's concept of two M8s (and a 28 mm lens in my case) makes better financial sense than buying even one M9. But I think the M9 has more photo Zen potential.

 

Tom