Will Leica ever embrace the digital age?

[Guest mc_k]

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...i would never use a Leica digital body for my pro needs (legal photography). Neither my dear Epsons needless to say.

 

for me the Epson has been a good, cheap alternative to a second body. So has a film camera.

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[Rick]

zlatkob - I always find it interesting that a few of the pro's that come on this forum, certainly not all, have the idea that the level of performance and reliability they need is somehow higher than what the amateur requires. Read zlatkob's last post and the OP on this thread and several other pro's current threads.

 

Somehow, because pro's use a camera for their vocation, they seem to think that these things are more important for them. And, the rest of us amateur slobs just pony up 7K because of superficial reasons (eye candy) and we don't care about or need reliability or quality. Do you really think we are that stupid and shallow? We didn't get to be your doctors and dentists and other successful professionals because we were stupid and shallow. We became these people, and some mastered photography as well, because we have qualities and traits beyond what you give us credit for. Us amateur-professionals use these pro-cameras and demand the same level of reliability and quality just like you do. I think you do yourself a disservice to believe otherwise.

 

We don't put our cameras on a shelf and sit at home and look at the eye candy. Some of us, for example, carry our cameras to the top of major mountain peaks. We often demand more from our cameras than the average wedding photographer. And, we do it and don't have brides or anyone else telling us what to do.

 

We do it for the pure art of it. And, we have artistic expectations and standards that I am sure often exceed what most professional standards would ever require these days. For example, the wedding photographer. I could do it with a Canon EOS Rebel and a couple of cheap Canon lenses. Paparazzi , same set up. Coverage of most news events, same. Sporting events, the same, maybe need a 5D2 and some better glass. But, most of this stuff, nobody is going to know the difference. The artistic professional or studio pro is entirely different as are some other areas.

 

Also, a huge percentage of pro's know nothing about PP and absolutely nothing about printing. I know one who shoots for Leica and has very limited PP knowledge and freely admits it. My point, the advanced amateur is often more knowledgable and proficient at all aspects of photography than the pro. We demand more from our cameras and are often more critical of them. We are not "satisfied if the very same camera gives (us) a feeling of old-world craftsmanship and some beautiful photos." - zlatkob I think you have a misconception of what us non-professionals are satisfied with.

 

When the discussion is on reliability and service, these are the same sort of things that are just as important or more important to the amateur. When our camera goes down we could miss, for example, the picture of a lifetime half way across the world on a once in a lifetime vacation. Don't tell me the pictures your camera takes are more important. To whom? And, the argument about a pro's camera's reliability is more important because of your reputation or income, is flawed. If, it is that important then carry a backup, something that few of us amateurs can afford to duplicate. I believe we count more on the reliability of one good body. Our backup is usually only a PAS.

 

If, reliability really is an issue with Leica cameras, then stop trying to shove a round peg in a square hole and buy a real professional camera. I don't get why you guys come on here and berate the reliability and unprofessional design of the M digital series but, continue to use them. If, the M9 really is unreliable and not designed to pro standards, then someone would have to be morons to continue to use them professionally. I am so glad I am an amateur.

[leicashot]

zlatkob - I always find it interesting that a few of the pro's that come on this forum, certainly not all, have the idea that the level of performance and reliability they need is somehow higher than what the amateur requires. Read zlatkob's last post and the OP on this thread and several other pro's current threads.

 

Somehow, because pro's use a camera for their vocation, they seem to think that these things are more important for them. And, the rest of us amateur slobs just pony up 7K because of superficial reasons (eye candy) and we don't care about or need reliability or quality. Do you really think we are that stupid and shallow? We didn't get to be your doctors and dentists and other successful professionals because we were stupid and shallow. We became these people, and some mastered photography as well, because we have qualities and traits beyond what you give us credit for. Us amateur-professionals use these pro-cameras and demand the same level of reliability and quality just like you do. I think you do yourself a disservice to believe otherwise.

 

We don't put our cameras on a shelf and sit at home and look at the eye candy. Some of us, for example, carry our cameras to the top of major mountain peaks. We often demand more from our cameras than the average wedding photographer. And, we do it and don't have brides or anyone else telling us what to do.

 

We do it for the pure art of it. And, we have artistic expectations and standards that I am sure often exceed what most professional standards would ever require these days. For example, the wedding photographer. I could do it with a Canon EOS Rebel and a couple of cheap Canon lenses. Paparazzi , same set up. Coverage of most news events, same. Sporting events, the same, maybe need a 5D2 and some better glass. But, most of this stuff, nobody is going to know the difference. The artistic professional or studio pro is entirely different as are some other areas.

 

Also, a huge percentage of pro's know nothing about PP and absolutely nothing about printing. I know one who shoots for Leica and has very limited PP knowledge and freely admits it. My point, the advanced amateur is often more knowledgable and proficient at all aspects of photography than the pro. We demand more from our cameras and are often more critical of them. We are not "satisfied if the very same camera gives (us) a feeling of old-world craftsmanship and some beautiful photos." - zlatkob I think you have a misconception of what us non-professionals are satisfied with.

 

When the discussion is on reliability and service, these are the same sort of things that are just as important or more important to the amateur. When our camera goes down we could miss, for example, the picture of a lifetime half way across the world on a once in a lifetime vacation. Don't tell me the pictures your camera takes are more important. To whom? And, the argument about a pro's camera's reliability is more important because of your reputation or income, is flawed. If, it is that important then carry a backup, something that few of us amateurs can afford to duplicate. I believe we count more on the reliability of one good body. Our backup is usually only a PAS.

 

If, reliability really is an issue with Leica cameras, then stop trying to shove a round peg in a square hole and buy a real professional camera. I don't get why you guys come on here and berate the reliability and unprofessional design of the M digital series but, continue to use them. If, the M9 really is unreliable and not designed to pro standards, then someone would have to be morons to continue to use them professionally. I am so glad I am an amateur.

 

Rick I don't believe any Pros are quite meaning for it to sound like that, but when amateurs get all upset like this it doesn't look good. Why should you care what a Pro thinks anyway? Leica needs the amateurs more than they need the Pros, but it also doesn't mean that if a Pro complains about reliability its of any less concern than yours. Any concern about reliability should be taken seriously by Leica - amateur or a Pro.

 

You can't tell a Pro to go use something else just because he's had issues with it, and expects more, just like you do. It's very easy for amateurs to judge Pros when your income and livelihood depends on the reliability of your camera, and until you're in their shoes you really shouldn't jump to such harsh conclusions. You complaint sounds somewhat emotional. No one is a 'moron' for using a Leica professionally, ever, digital or film. It was a tad harsh, don't you think?

 

Lastly, the Leica is a 'real professional camera' regardless of what percentage of users are Pros. It is designed to professional standards and therefor Pros should expect professional reliability. Leica would expect the same.

[jaapv]

This whole thread is nonsensical.

Firstly Leica has a professional service including loaners and expedited repairs. The only proviso being that a professional applies for that service, allowing Leica to check his credentials. I don't know whether it is free or not.

Secondly the OP didn't get that service because he neglected to apply for it as a professional.

 

So hammering Leica for not providing that pro service is wholly unjustified, as is the original complaint .

[leicashot]

This whole thread is nonsensical.

Firstly Leica has a professional service including loaners and expedited repairs. The only proviso being that a professional applies for that service, allowing Leica to check his credentials. I suppose it is not free either.

Secondly the OP didn't get that service because he neglected to apply for it as a professional.

 

So hammering Leica for not providing that pro service is wholly unjustified, as is the original complaint .

 

While I agree with where you're coming from, Leica doesn't exactly promote a profesional service like Canon/Nikon does so in some ways Leica has the responsibility to ensure Professionals know about it, and it should be free of charge like everyone else.

[bybrett]

Rick

 

I agree with you -

 

- the requirements and expectations of a non-professional using M is often higher than a professional

 

- a professional with lower expectations will already have a plan B in place

[jaapv]

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It is probably free, my disclaimer was because I simply don't know. I edited my post to be more clear. thank you. And it is very clearly marked on the website. Just go to service and repair and click through. It is the responsibility of an official Leica dealer to inform his customers as well, I should think.

:confused:Btw, what has professional service to do with the digital age as in the thread title, I wonder?

[Rick]

Rick I don't believe any Pros are quite meaning for it to sound like that, but when amateurs get all upset like this it doesn't look good. Why should you care what a Pro thinks anyway? Leica needs the amateurs more than they need the Pros, but it also doesn't mean that if a Pro complains about reliability its of any less concern than yours. Any concern about reliability should be taken seriously by Leica - amateur or a Pro.

 

You can't tell a Pro to go use something else just because he's had issues with it, and expects more, just like you do. It's very easy for amateurs to judge Pros when your income and livelihood depends on the reliability of your camera, and until you're in their shoes you really shouldn't jump to such harsh conclusions. You complaint sounds somewhat emotional. No one is a 'moron' for using a Leica professionally, ever, digital or film. It was a tad harsh, don't you think?

 

Lastly, the Leica is a 'real professional camera' regardless of what percentage of users are Pros. It is designed to professional standards and therefor Pros should expect professional reliability. Leica would expect the same.

 

First off, I'm not emotional at all. Next, you miss the point(s), I think reliability is just as important for an amateur, if it really is an issue with the M9.

 

Further, I think you need to read zlatkob's last post before you say that no Pros are making it sound like that. And, I believe that it actually is moronic to say that his standard is somehow higher than an amateur's and the amateurs just want "old world craftsmanship."

 

I don't think I need to be in his shoes to understand what it would be like to have equipment fail on the job. Please, it isn't that hard to imagine.

 

Lastly, I never said it is moronic to use Leica gear. I said, if someone believes it is unreliable and not built to professional standards, as a professional, it would be moronic to use it.

 

God, I am so glad I am not a professional. And, this is silly.

[Rick]

Rick

 

I agree with you -

 

- the requirements and expectations of a non-professional using M is often higher than a professional

 

- a professional with lower expectations will already have a plan B in place

 

Thanks. By the way, if I were a wedding photographer, I wouldn't shoot the Rebel. I'd probably go broke and use an M9 and a 5D2 and that beautiful 85/1.2. Not because it is needed, because they produce beautiful pictures and I think I'd have a hard time delivering any thing less. As soon as you guys make it art... it changes the whole argument.

[M'Ate]

The reality is that Leica do not offer a Pro repair service that matches Nikon and Canon. I don't believe that they set out to do it, nor have invested in it. As a working Pro, I accept that, hope for improvement and then get on with taking pictures.

 

In December, I replaced my disappointing M8 with an M9 and in March I added a Canon 1D MkIV to my Mk II and 1V. For 4 years the MkII has been utterly reliable and dependable, but I'd love to switch completely to M9's, and may doe so soon, because I prefer the image quality and the camera size. As the owner of several Canon Pro bodies, I'm automatically accepted for the CPP professional repair service.

 

On purchase, both new bodies were found not to be in perfect harmony with two lenses each. Canon offer to calibrate two lenses as part of their product and a phone call to Leica resulted in 5 of my M lenses being accepted for calibration with an asap turnaround as I needed cameras for upcoming, but not immediate, assignments.

 

Both kits were packed and posted on the same day to the manufacturers. 5 days later the Canon was back with me, but with a new fault with one of the lenses. It was returned and back again within 7 days.

 

Four weeks after posting the M9 I checked the service status on the net - Received. I sent an email to the country office and in 3 days got a reply that said they would chase it up. 3 days later I was informed that 2 of the lenses needed chargeable repairs, but advised that I probably could do without repair if I hadn't noticed any effect. Not accepting that, called Solms and discovered that repair was essential.and paid immediately. 2 weeks later I called again and was told will ship next Monday. 10 days later phoned again and was told ship Friday and they did and 9 weeks after despatch for lens calibration the gear returned home and is 100% OK, apart from the body frequently shutting down when viewing the Menu..

 

So, as a working Pro, I know all of this first hand and have read here of others experiences, but I'm determined to stick with it because I like the equipment and I trust that it will continue to improve. I don't believe that Leica is particularly interested in the professional market. Pro outlets don't stock the camera, rental companies don't offer the camera and I don't come across advertising or advatorials that promote professional use. With the exception of Magnum photographers, Leica appear to be much more interested in their association with celebrity owners than pros.

 

With this knowledge, I must decide for myself what is acceptable and what is not, whether as a pro or as an enthusiast (which I also am) and I'll stick with my M9 for as long as it suits me.

[jaapv]

Did you register for the Leica Pro service beforehand as required? If you just add a note to the repair "I'm a professional" that is insufficient.

[M'Ate]

If you just add a note to the repair "I'm a professional" that is insufficient.

 

Jaap, why do you run to the defence of the company every time ? Telling me that my action was "insufficient" is irritating. I presume you're not speaking from experience, again?

 

As it happened, I explained my occupation and requirements and asked whether I needed to register for the Pro service when first seeking direction on how to proceed. I was clearly informed that ALL M9 repairs were treated with top priority and there was no need to register. It would not make any difference

 

When I spoke to the Service Manager in Solms, I asked again whether the Pro registration would help. "No, not necessary at all. What's more, it's already Work In Progress and will be despatched on Monday".

 

Now Jaap, are you saying that Pro registration would have made a difference in this case and that I should not have trusted the word of the country Service Manager, or the Solms Service Manager. I've given you the history, my experience and not opinion or here-say.

[jaapv]

My experience as a non-pro, who has regular dealings with Leica is that M9 repairs have a turnaround of five days standard, which has been the case several times for me - even faster normally and CS Solms has assured me the normal turnaround for registered pros is two working days. Registered pros get loaners. It is also explained on the website,as is the need to register as you can see by the quote in my post. I am sorry to hear you got the wrong information and slow service, but that is not the way it should be. Leica USA owes you ay least an apology imo.

[Riccis]

M'ate:

 

Unfortunately you were given the wrong information, you do need to register to take advantage of Leica Professional Services. Once you do, they send you all paperwork (including member number, just like NPS and CPS) and everything else you need to ensure your repairs are given priority... The program has other benefits as well such as 10% off discount. I am currently out of the country for the next three weeks and don't have my laptop on me but I will be happy to send you the contact info for the person to talk to in Solms...

 

Cheers!

[jaapv]

The contact person is Andrea Frankl. Very nice lady.

 

andrea.frankl<at>leica-camera.com

[M'Ate]

The contact person is Andrea Frankl. Very nice lady.

andrea.frankl<at>leica-camera.com

 

A very nice ldy indeed. I spoke to here twice and had emails from her three times.

 

Indeed, it was Mrs Frankl who advised there would be no benefit in joining the professional service. Maybe that applies to the M9 due to it's priority.

 

Bear in mind also that there was nothing wrong with my M9, but my 24 & 90 which were back focussing and subsequently the 24 & 75 which needed repairs. I asked Mrs Frankl to release the M9 and OK lenses, but that was not possible as Service wanted to calibrate the whole set. That was fine by me as the reason for sending all the gear was to have a perfect set. That I now have and am delighted,so don't see any ongoing frustration in me.

 

The point of my first post here was to infer that Leica are not setting themselves up to be a premium supplier to the professional market and matching the Canon & Nikon operations. I'm delighted to have this 'special' equipment in my possession and have accepted that it comes from a manufacturer that provides the service we have. I wouldn't expect a custom car manufacturer, or bespoke tailor to match the standards of a multi-national.

[zlatkob]

And, the rest of us amateur slobs just pony up 7K because of superficial reasons (eye candy) and we don't care about or need reliability or quality. Do you really think we are that stupid and shallow?

RickLeica, you've so thoroughly misconstrued my comment. My comment was an observation, not a judgment. I tried to make that clear. The observation, in a nutshell, is that pro photographers often have different needs and expectations. I enjoy my bicycle and I expect it to work, but I don't have the same needs or expectations of it as Lance Armstrong does from his — we are in such different worlds that it's not even close. A bike built for Lance would probably make me very happy, and a bike built for my intended usage would probably make Lance very, very unhappy.

 

Also and again, the comment about eye candy wasn't about ALL amateurs, but about those for whom that is specifically the case. I don't know the numbers or percentages, but there is enough evidence to indicate that some of these cameras will be lovingly displayed and used very little. I think that market is real, but I hope it doesn't become the target market for the product.

[AlanG]

... and 9 weeks after despatch for lens calibration the gear returned home and is 100% OK' date=' apart from the body frequently shutting down when viewing the Menu..

 

[/quote']

 

This is pretty disconcerting and if I don't see why amateurs would put up with a 9 week wait for service either.

 

I think most pros need at least three bodies in order to have two or more available if one is out for service. (And a way to quickly get another body in a hurry if needed, should they be down to only two bodies.) If I went out on an important shoot with only two bodies, and one of those broke, I would be pretty anxious about only having one body left. But with Canon and Nikon, you have the knowledge that you can pick up some kind of body in an emergency from Best Buy, Ritz, or numerous other locations.

 

From what I could see in the initial post, the OP had a tough time buying one body let alone two or more. And if it is out for service, it may be tough getting a timely replacement. So in this case, another brand might be the only back-up available.

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[jaapv]

At a guess I suppose she meant there was no point at that time, as one has to go through the system before the benefits are applied, which takes a bit of time. Credentials have to be checked etc. This being a German firm, attempting to buck the system results in the system grinding to a halt :oI would advise you to apply now.

 

A very nice ldy indeed. I spoke to here twice and had emails from her three times.

 

Indeed' date=' it was Mrs Frankl who advised there would be no benefit in joining the professional service. Maybe that applies to the M9 due to it's priority.

 

Bear in mind also that there was nothing wrong with my M9, but my 24 & 90 which were back focussing and subsequently the 24 & 75 which needed repairs. I asked Mrs Frankl to release the M9 and OK lenses, but that was not possible as Service wanted to calibrate the whole set. That was fine by me as the reason for sending all the gear was to have a perfect set. That I now have and am delighted,so don't see any ongoing frustration in me.

 

The point of my first post here was to infer that Leica are not setting themselves up to be a premium supplier to the professional market and matching the Canon & Nikon operations. I'm delighted to have this 'special' equipment in my possession and have accepted that it comes from a manufacturer that provides the service we have. I wouldn't expect a custom car manufacturer, or bespoke tailor to match the standards of a multi-national. [/quote']

[leicashot]

I truly get the sense of jealousy from 'certain' amateurs here over professionals. It's ridiculous. it's not a competition to see who Leica likes the most. Hey don't get me wrong, I wish I was an amateur, seriously - cause I could then enjoy my hobby like I used to shooting for myself and not always others.