Yet another 28mm thread

[Guest nephilim]

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Hi,

 

I've been looking for a consistent comparison of the 28/2 and the latest 28/2.8 (ASPH and pre-ASPH aka IV) on full frame but have been unsuccessful up to now. There is lots of stuff incombination with the M8 (which obviously cuts off the corners) but not so much on film or the M9. Reid's test of the 28mm RF lenses was done on an M8 w/o the pre-ASPH and Puts tells me not to care about the MTF graphs

 

I'm looking for a 28mm lens and my wallet forces me to stay in Elmarit territory. When comparing the Cron with the Elmarit ASPH the common agreement seems to be

 

- slight resolution advantage for the Cron

- less sharpness fall-off towards the corners wide open for the Cron

- slightly higher contrast in case of the Elmarit, which doesn't mean the Cron is a slouch

- slightly more pleasant bokeh with the Cron

 

Overall size aside, from this verdict I'd prefer the Cron, but for the mentioned reason... :-)

 

How does the pre-ASPH version compare to the other two lenses in terms of bokeh, contrast, sharpness, corner 'blur', distortion and 'dreaminess'? What about flare (the latest Elmarit seems to be pretty resistent)?

 

There is a shop in my city where I could either get a brand-new ASPH or a used pre-ASPH for 70% of the ASPH's prize. I want to use the lens on an M7.

 

Your advice is greatly appreciated!

 

Cheers,

Torsten

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[holmes]

Well here in New Mexico (USA) there are frankly not enough Leica users to go to. The majority cluster around NM University area. Two camera shops and one up in Santa Fe. Makes the rest of us feel like second rate cousins. When I started using Leica I purchased a 28mm f 2.8. Leica was going full steam ahead and $$ was a concern. I used that 28 f 2.8 a lot. Speed does not matter as the sun shines 330 days a year. Later when the $$$ improved I sold the 28mm f 2.8 and picked up a 28 f 2 asph. I compared the results and found no glaring differences. Corners, color, a true representation of what I saw. I would suggest shooting with what you have rather then making a jump and save the money.

[Guest nephilim]

Thanks holmes! So you'd say that the apart from the 1-stop difference the pre-asph Elmarit and the Cron are pretty close?

 

Just for clarification: I don't own a 28mm yet but try to decide between the Elmarit asph and pre-asph.

[adan]

The MAIN difference between the most recent (1992) pre-ASPH Elmarit 28 and the Summicron is that Leica managed to add a full f/stop in a package the same size.

 

I was going to mention E. Puts, but if you've already seen his 28 'cron review OlderMlenses we'll move on.

 

Personally - my favorite M 28 of all time is the v.3 Elmarit - 1980-1993. All the resolution of the v.4 with a longer tonal range. But - big (it was designed in an era when M bodies did not include 28 framelines, and external finders were used.) I reviewed it (alas, on the M8) here: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/45854-praise-mandler-lenses.html

 

The main reason for the 1993 redesign was to get the same performance into a package that did not block the viewfinder as much - and add a little contrast at the same time.

 

What I notice about the current ASPH Elmarit vs. the pre-ASPH v.4 is that corner performance drops off much more steeply with the ASPH - its mtf stays higher than the v.4 out to about 19mm and then - bam! - drops through the floor. The v.4 drops off sooner but more smoothly.

 

Unfortunately, while I have used all of the 28 Elmarits at one time or another (including the non-retrofocus v.1 of the 1960's), I haven't used them together on a consistent platform. My impressions are that:

 

- they all do equally well in the center

- the v.1 is Wetzlar cool, the v2./v.3 are Mandler cyan, the v.4 and ASPH are Solms pinkish

- the v.1 is contrasty, the v.2/v.3 softer, the v.4 regains contrast, the ASPH is contrastier yet

- the corner performance on 24 x 36 is where the differences will be - I've mentioned the v.4 vs the ASPH, the v.3 is like the v.4 with less contrast.

 

I find the ASPH corners to be "busy" on the M8 and even more so on the M9 and don't like it much. But since I'm comparing it to my recall of the v.3, v.4 and 'cron corners on film - you can take that with a grain of salt.

 

[Edit: deleted reference to coding, since you mention use on an M7. Me - I'd go for the v.4 (well, actually, a v.3 - but since the v.4 is what you have available.....)]

[Jeff S]

Reid's test of the 28mm RF lenses was done on an M8 w/o the pre-ASPH

 

Not likely in time for your decision, but Sean did write (in his recent 35 mm lens comparison) that he plans to revisit the RF lens range on the M9 over time, and do so in stages.

 

I really like the 28 Summicron asph, but alas, I use it on an M8.2. I tried an Elmarit asph, and it was, as you note, more contrasty than the Summicron. The Elmarit asph size, however, would have been nice for travel. On my film Ms, the only 28 I used was with the MATE, slow and not small, but convenient for travel as a substitute 3 lens back-up.

 

Jeff

 

PS I note on your profile that you have a 50 Summilux asph. I find it to be a wonderful companion to the 28 Summicron asph (again on a cropped M). YBMV (your budget may vary).

[thrid]

If you are on a budget take a look at the new Voigtlander Cosina Ultron 2/28.

 

I picked one up a few weeks ago and I have to say that it's an incredible bargain.

 

Very sharp, (even f2 looks very good), contrast is well balanced, handles flare very well.

 

Build is first rate, although I suspect that the black anodized finish is a little thinner than on the Leicas.

Nice compact size. Frameline obstruction on a .72 finder is very reasonable, but probably a touch more than the Elmarit. Excellent ergonomics, with finger tab.

 

A few years ago I had the VC 1.9/28 ASPH. Also a very good lens, but bigger and I sold it, because I felt that it intruded too far in to the framelines (.72)

[tgray]

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As I understand it, the pre-ASPH Elmarit is as good if not better than the ASPH Elmarit. Lower contrast, but sharper and more even across the frame. Of course it is larger.

 

I've not used any of them except the Summicron. If I could only have one lens on any system, it would be this one. It's fantastic on film (all I shoot at the moment). It's the same size as the pre-ASPH, but a stop faster. One disadvantage that I know of on the Summicron is that it does vignette more than a lot of other 28's. I don't know what the deal with this is - it doesn't appear to vignette much more in any of the spec sheets, but in actual use, it does. I don't mind it. Also the Elmarit ASPH has less distortion than the Summicron, not that the Summicron has a lot.

 

Personally, if you only use 28 some of the time, there are some other good options out there. The CV 28/3.5 if you can find a used one is a great lens. It's my backup 28. Very small and very nice. I'd take it over the Elmarit ASPH, but that's just me. If you use or will use 28 a lot, the Summicron is the one to get. Look around for them used. People are dumping them because they went from the M8 to the M9, and they were using 28 as a 35mm equivalent lens and no longer need them.

[Guest nephilim]

Thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts and giving advice!

 

Andy: Thanks for the pointer to the other article by Puts. Previously I mainly relied on his 28/2.8 ASPH review, where he also discusses the Cron and older Elmarit. According to this the Cron is always ahead of the Elmarit pre-asph in therms of contrast and rendition of very fine detail. The sudden "deterioration" of the Elmarit's corner performance seems to be the biggest issue. I'm not sure yet if this can be cured by stopping down or will be visible at all f/stops? Thanks for bringing up your thread from 2008 - good to see the v3 example with the comments regarding the v4 and ASPH.

 

Jeff: I do like the compact size of the ASPH but the corner performance is my biggest concern. There are also reports that the high contrast and OOF rendering lead to a not too pleasing result in the corners. While the sharpness penalty might be cured by stopping down (?), the corner rendering cannot be changed. It would be great if the shop gave me both lenses and an M9 for some testing at home ;-)

 

thrid: I fear that I'm a bit too snobbish :-) I preferred the M7 over the Zeiss Ikon and most likely will stay on the pure Leica path. Maybe that's silly... However, when reading Sean Reid's reviews the results of various Voigtländer lenses didn't blow me away.

 

Tim: Agreed! The Summicron would be the best solution. Alas, a used Cron sells for the price of two minty v4 or 1.5 new ASPH. I just added a used 90 APO-ASPH to the 50 Lux ASPH and don't see a way to afford the 28 Cron :-)

 

Btw, I purchased the 90/2 in the buy&sell section of this forum and while the outer appearance was described as flawless/as new, the aperture ring came with some visible brassing. I guess this was my last purchase of used stuff via the web for a longer while. Time to visit my local dealer more often :-/

 

Cheers,

Torsten

[tobey bilek]

My 1985 is a great lens, around $600 new I paid. Built well and a Mandler design era lens.

 

Get one with the 49mm shade which you clamp on and don`t take off. And don`t use it a handle to tighten the lens on the bayonet either.

 

Add a 28 finder, my choice the old metal 28. 28 frmes are worthless in .72 bodies anyway.

 

It has a companion 21 2.8 pre that was $650 new and has a black metal finder rather than silver so I can tell them apart. About the same quality lens.

 

I don`t think I be buying any of these new $4000 lenses anytime soon. My M6 pair still has the protective tape on the bottom plate and they accept the brass cassetts so I will not be replacing them anytime soon either.

[thrid]

thrid: I fear that I'm a bit too snobbish :-) I preferred the M7 over the Zeiss Ikon and most likely will stay on the pure Leica path. Maybe that's silly...

 

Hey, it's a free country (or at least that's what I've been told). If you got the cash, go for the Cron. It's an incredibly good lens.

;-)

 

However, when reading Sean Reid's reviews the results of various Voigtländer lenses didn't blow me away.

 

Well, that's one person's opinion. Sean's reviews are useful, but they aren't the 'bible'.

 

Over the the last 5 weeks I've shot about 15 - 20 rolls of Kodak TMY-2 400 with the Ultron 2/28 and made 4000dpi scans on a Nikon 9000ED. So, far I'm very impressed. I will even go so far as saying that the results were much better than I had expected. I've shot some other VC glass and while it was good, it was clearly not as good as the newer Leica equivalents. But the Ultron is a cut above the previous stuff from CV.

 

Some people who have shot both the Ultron and Cron say that the Leica is better in the corners wide open.

 

Again, if you got the cash go for the best money can buy, but if not the Ultron should not disappoint.

[250swb]

But the Ultron is a cut above the previous stuff from CV.

 

Some people who have shot both the Ultron and Cron say that the Leica is better in the corners wide open.

 

Again, if you got the cash go for the best money can buy, but if not the Ultron should not disappoint.

 

Yes the f2 Ultron 28mm works OK with film. But the M9 would be more critical and the focus shift is very pronounced. As focus shift is a design characteristic and not sample variation I wouldn't like to recommend it to an M9 user. I soon sold my Ultron for a 28mm Summicron after getting the M9. I understand the 28mm f1.9 Ultron is better in this respect but I haven't used that one.

 

Steve

[Guest nephilim]

I went to the shop yesterday and had a look at the Elmarit v4. The lens was described as near mint and looked flawless at first sight. On closer inspection there was a bright patch behind the front element close to the edge (maybe some paint from the inner side of the barrel?) and a significant amount of oil on the aperture blades. The guy in the shop was suprised as well and said he had to check what had gone wrong. Apart from that I wasn't that happy about the size of the lens and asked him to show me the ASPH. Despite my initial opinion that the overall size is not the most important factor, I immediately fell in love with this tiny lens. I don't wear glasses and feel optimistic that I can live w/o an external finder. So the little blockage of the ASPH is very attractive. I bought the lens and will check the results throughout the next weeks. If the contrast really bothers me and the corners don't sharpen up by stopping down (a quick test with the M9 looked promising) I hope I should be able to sell it w/o much loss.

[thrid]

In my experience the whole focus shift issue is overblown and matters little or nothing, when it comes to taking pictures in the real world. There probably are more people out there that miss focus due to camera handling issues like breathing, than focus shift. Besides, DOF takes care of the problem most of the time.

 

Until the arrival of the latest generation of glass from Leica and other companies, that specifically address this issue, photographers spent decades shooting with lenses that suffered from focus shift and somehow managed to make useable and sometimes even great pictures.

 

Of course they did spend a lot more time shooting, than examining files at 800% in Photoshop looking for all sorts of academic issues.

[bocaburger]

I went to the shop yesterday and had a look at the Elmarit v4. The lens was described as near mint and looked flawless at first sight. On closer inspection there was a bright patch behind the front element close to the edge (maybe some paint from the inner side of the barrel?) and a significant amount of oil on the aperture blades.Apart from that I wasn't that happy about the size of the lens and asked him to show me the ASPH. Despite my initial opinion that the overall size is not the most important factor, I immediately fell in love with this tiny lens.

 

When I was shopping for a 28 for my M8 (never had that focal length before) I had before me a demo Elmarit ASPH and a mint used Elmarit-IV both priced at $1200. My inclination was to ignore the little voice in my head that kept saying "there's got to be a reason why the used non-ASPH is the same price as the demo ASPH" and go for the ASPH purely because it's so tiny by comparison. But while I was deliberating I noticed an auction for a IV with a tiny (~2mm) scratch on the front element and ended up winning it for $600. Performance-wise it's everything I could hope for, but yes it's not a bantam, and it does take a 46mm filter meaning when I travel I have to carry a spare UV/IR for that size as well as the 39mm of the rest of my outfit.

 

One thing I'll mention, on the M8 because of the crop, that large boxy shade isn't essential, and you can use one meant for a 35mm lens. I found a vented one originally meant for the Konica Hexar-RF 35/2, but I think you can get vented w/a hoods in 46mm on the Bay. That, plus the fact the 28mm frames are smaller on the M8, means very little if any blockage. And the Elmarit-IV is extremely flare-resistant. Even with the IR filter and no shade at all I've never gotten flare.

 

Final comment (and I'll duck for cover after making it): I found a screw-mount Ultron f/1.9 for a song and figured what the heck. Turns out it's every bit as good as the Elmarit IV from 2.8 down, plus it's got an extra stop for emergencies. Worth a look. I milled out a Leitz 9cm adapter with the black code recesses for a 28 Summicron.

[tgray]

A little story about the size of the 28/2.8 ASPH:

 

I've had the 28 Summicron for about two years now and love it. At one point, I needed to send it off for some cleaning and decided I wanted a backup/small 28. The obvious contender was the CV 28/35. It was cheap, but had been discontinued and I was having a hard time finding one. There was also this nagging feeling that I should get a 28/2.8 ASPH because a) it's the smallest lens in the Leica line, it has very little distortion and c) Leica was running a discount on it at the time. The distortion thing particularly appealed to me. Not that the Summicron distortion annoyed me, but it seemed a zero distortion lens seemed like a useful thing to own. However, the 28/2.8 ASPH was just too expensive compared the CV, so when I found a used CV 28, I bought it.

 

Several months later, I got a chance to actually use the 28/2.8 ASPH. I have to say, I MUCH prefer the ergonomics and size of the CV. The Summicron is easier to handle than both since it's a bit larger, but compared to the CV, I found the 28/2.8 ASPH a bit fiddly. In my book, the CV does everything the 28/2.8 ASPH does, but better, excepting the speed of course (I have a 28/2 for that). Smaller, cheaper, more dense, easier to use, and just as sharp from what I've seen. Too bad they don't make it anymore.