Is there any reason, technical or otherwise, that there is no Summilux 28mm?

[JonK]

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It would seem to be a logical dream lens for cameras with 28mm FF viewfinders.

 

Are there any rumours of such a lens being planned?

[lars_bergquist]

(1) No.

 

(2) No.

 

A 28mm Summilux is of course a natural, if you believe very wide Summiluxes are needed by the photographers (I don't). If we have to search for a reason for the present strategy, well, the bragging factor is of course far greater for a 21mm 'lux than for most any other. And much of the work done for the 21 must have been applicable to a 24 too. There is in fact a rumour that the aspherical element is identical in both.

 

But to return to the first sentence of this paragraph, let's see what happens at photokina.

 

The old man from the Age of the Contax Biogon

[hoppyman]

Yet

Let's see. It seems a logical development or at least a desirable goal. The Summicron was really a marvel of design when it first appeared being actually smaller than the earlier Elmarit. The trick of course is to keep it sufficiently compact for handling and so as not to block too much of the finder. Based on my own handling over just an hour or two the 21 and 24 are rather larger and heavier than I prefer (inevitably of course).

Now that the Summilux 35 has been redesigned perhaps this new one is nearing the top of the list? In my opinion more useful and desirable than the 21 and 24 notwithstanding their superb performance of course.

But with M lens demand so very high since the advent of the M9, I don't think that further new designs are likely to be actually available any time soon. I ordered the Summilux 35 on principle but I don't expect to see any widely available stock for months, certainly.

[01af]

I wouldn't be surprised if at Leica they are designing a Summilux-M 28 mm Asph right know, to be released next year or the year after. In fact I'd be surprised if they didn't.

[adan]

Basic fact - 28mm lenses must be able to use the internal framelines, which places a limit on their size, and thus the maximum aperture. 24/21 lenses always rely on external finders set 2cm higher anyway (except for the oddity of a cropped 24 on the M8) so size is not as strict a limitation on their aperture. There is also a size limitation in that no lens can block the other (small) rangefinder window, either.

 

There is room for individual taste in how big a 28 could be - i.e. how much of the viewfinder it could block and still be acceptable. It certainly cannot be the size of, say, the 28 Nikkor f/1.4.

 

The only official word I've ever heard was from Stephan Daniel at PMA 2007. Guy Mancuso and I asked about a 28 'lux then, and his reply was "f/2 is enough, don't you think?"

 

But then - a 28 Summicron seemed a great idea and Leica actually did one prototype as early as the mid-1980's. It just took them 20 years to make it real.

[Xmas]

Probably delayed by 35mm floating envelope design, be patient...

Basic fact - 28mm lenses must be able to use the internal framelines, which places a limit on their size,

...

There is also a size limitation in that no lens can block the other (small) rangefinder window, either.

CV do a f/1.2 35mm so a f/1.4 28mm 2 or 3 asph surfaces should be smaller, but yes more finder blockage.

The only official word I've ever heard was from Stephan Daniel at PMA 2007. Guy Mancuso and I asked about a 28 'lux then, and his reply was "f/2 is enough, don't you think?"

1st rule of marketing, never pre-announce a product until it exists in production, if you are still making an alternate. Keep your eyes open around Solms for people with large lenses with PCV tape all over them...

But then - a 28 Summicron seemed a great idea and Leica actually did one prototype as early as the mid-1980's. It just took them 20 years to make it real.

The 28mm cron was dependent on glass & asph technology, to reduce cost/size, it (the design) is a decade old...

 

It is a two horse race Leica or CV, if Leica lose the race, lots of people, who just take photos, may buy the CV and stick with it. Lots of my friends have the f/1.2 35mm, they are not waiting for a mkII CV or floating lux.

 

It is a bit like the grand national, I can hear the commentator getting hoarse, 'they both clear the last hurdle and Daniel has the whip out, and he is thrashing it...'...

 

Noel

[tgray]

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I'd guess that one will come out eventually. It will also probably be too large for me as well and block quite a bit of the internal framelines. Not to mention the price.

 

The current 28/2 really is a fabulous lens and very small for what it is. I love mine.

[lars_bergquist]

Frankly, I have precious little use for a 28mm lens -- ANY 28mm lens -- on a 24x36 format camera. The 28mm Summicron was a lovely lens on the M8, where it was equivalent to 37mm; and I am very much a 35mm man. But now I am driving a M9, and my 28 Summicron is up for sale.

 

My favourite 'real wide' lens on 35mm cameras has always been 24/25mm.

 

The same old man

[JonK]

Thanks for the comments.

 

I spent some time with the Summilux 24 today as well as the CV 35 1.2. Both were lovely lenses albeit at wildly differing cost, but neither really grabbed me.

 

I want to get perhaps just one large aperture lens; it will be interesting to see what suits...my goggles summilux 35 is not really much fun on the 9.

[lars_bergquist]

I have owned a 'goggle-less' pre-ASPH 35mm Summilux. I discarded it as useless and scraped up enough money for a Summilux-ASPH, which had just been launched.

 

The old man

[tgray]

I find I can shoot in the same situations with the 28/2 as I can with a 50/1.4. The wider focal length lets me go about a stop slower of shutter speed, which compensates for the f/2 as opposed to to f/1.4. A 28/1.4 would obviously give me another stop to play with, but I think I'll survive. I'm not one of those who wants such a lens for the small DOF, just the ability to use it in the dark.

[hoppyman]

Noel, it sounds as though the new Summilux 35 will appeal to you then, when stock becomes available. Respectfully I don't consider that there is any race between Leica Camera And Cosina. Very different price points, philosophies, tolerances etc. I think that Erwin has some comparative testing comments if interested. The current 28 Summicron ASPH really is a design marvel and superb optic. Nothing about cost cutting in that design and everything about performance in an amazing form factor. I don't personally yearn for a Summilux version but then I was more than surprised at the release of the 21 and 24. Both are simply too big for me (as is the new Nocti as well). Summicrons would have made more sense for my personal preferences but of course the new Summiluxes are flagship type leading edge designs and produce superb results. I just don't need f/1.4 in those focal length enough to accept the inevitably larger form factors. Different preferences and priorities for different shooters of course. All of those lenses are very much small volume manufacture and availability of course. Even the 50 is by no means easy to obtain currently.

 

For me the pinnacles of the M range are that 50, the Summicron 28 and the 75 too. Everything else is an option

 

Another vote here for being able to get done what I want done with the Summicron 28 ASPH. at f/2 if needed. On the other hand I already have my order in for the 35 as well

[wilfredo]

Is there any reason a 50mm Summilux ASPH is nowhere to be found (except on the used market or at inflated prices due to scarcity)?

[JonK]

Is there any reason a 50mm Summilux ASPH is nowhere to be found (except on the used market or at inflated prices due to scarcity)?

 

Yes there is a reason. Leica have stated recently that production is very low because of the special glass needed (rare earths..I think)

[JonK]

Another vote here for being able to get done what I want done with the Summicron 28 ASPH. at f/2 if needed. On the other hand I already have my order in for the 35 as well

 

I haven't found anywhere to compare the 2.8 and 2s @ 28mm. Do you get much viewfinder block with the summicron?

 

Is it much bigger than a 35 summ?

 

Thanks

[hoppyman]

I've never seen that suggestion that scarcity of a particular glass type is causing a shortage of the Summilux 50ASPH. Maybe you can share where you saw that?

One factor that is known is that demand for M lenses in general has increased greatly with the advent of the M9. However the Summilux was never a high volume production item in any case and now everyone wants one for their shiny new M Rightly so.

 

As far as the Summicron 28 ASPH, it is the hood design that is the biggest intrusion into the field of view whereas the bare lens is certainly small. On an M9 (.68 finder) the corner of the hood (which does have a cutout) extends to the centreline at infinity and the bottom of the 90 frame. More at minimum focus (parallax correction and lens extension). You get used to it naturally. The bare lens just nips off the bottom extreme corner of the 28 frame and is of no concern at all. You might have noticed that the newer designs all have a circular screw on metal hood which is more compact.

Size wise the current Summicrons 28 and 35 plus the Elmarit 28 are all almost the same diameter. I think 1mm in it.

The Summicron 28 is all of about 6.3mm longer than the 35 (which does have a smaller hood to add on though). The Elmarit 28 is tiny and I think the smallest in their range.

But really all of this stuff is cosmetics. What the lenses will produce wide open is far more important.

[JonK]

I'll have to do a search; I'm pretty sure the glass statement was from an article coming from Leica in the last couple of weeks, an interview with someone there. With all these different forums and Facebook links I can never be certain where to look, but I wasn't just making it up, honest!

 

 

 

Thanks again

Jon

[JonK]

I'm not sure if quoting from other sites is allowed here, so if you want to see the statement please look on Steve Huff's site, entry on 11th May, 4th paragraph under Leica heading.

 

Jon

[hoppyman]

Thanks for posting that reference Jon. I went and read the article on the site. Actually I had only just been in there reading a review on the new Summilux 35 that is linked from the Leica blog.

Perhaps some of this information quoted from Stefan Daniel will appear in the Leica blog too. Some of course has been consistently said by Stefan Daniel since last year. No doubt Photokina will bring more news.

I certainly knew that the Summilux 50 was low volume and sought after naturally. The last one that my dealer has just supplied had been on order since last November, I think.

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[adan]

Back to the original 28mm question, I'd just point out that the 28mm focal length has always been something of an afterthought in the M line.

 

Item 1) Leica did not even make an M-mount 28mm for the first decade of the M line. Only the SM 28 Summaron f/5.6. The 28 f/2.8 did not appear until 1965, while the 21 f/4 was available from 1958 and the 21 f/3.4 from 1963.

 

item 2) Leica never made a chrome version of any M 28 until a couple of years ago (silver 'cron), even though they were cranking out lots of chrome 21s, 35s, 50s, and 90s in the 60's and in a spate of APO/ASPHs (including 24s) 1995-2005.

 

Item 3) It took Leica 26 years to add a 28 frameline to the .72x viewfinder, even though that same VF had been around since the M2.

 

I get the impression Leica has usually figured most people use a 35, and can either take a step back, or change to something significantly wider.

 

I note that Zeiss also only made one 28mm (f/8 Tessar - non-RF coupled)) for the Contax rangefinders - maybe it is just a "German rangefinder" blind spot....