mby Posted December 30, 2006 Share #1 Posted December 30, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi, As I'm solely shooting B&W with my MP, I wondered if it were commercially reasonable and viable for Leica to create a M8'b' whith just a B&W (full frame?) sensor? With that, one could also avoid the magenta/IR issue maybe easier, and that could be the type of digital camera which would live for some more years... Currently I'm thinking about buying a Nikon Coolscan 5000 for going digital as I'm not totally convinced by the current M8 (requirement of additional filter against magenta/IR, no full fram esensor, lifecycle probably less than previous Leicas). Any thoughts are welcome. Wishing you a very happy new year and all the best, Michael Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 30, 2006 Posted December 30, 2006 Hi mby, Take a look here B&W M8b?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
etienne_werner Posted December 30, 2006 Share #2 Posted December 30, 2006 Hi, For what it is worth, a month ago, at a Leica demo day here in the Netherlands, the Leica importeur told me that Leica was going to bring out a B&W Leica in 2007. He said it would be over 30 MP. Since I have no way of checking his statement, I'm not sure if this info is right. But on the otherhand if you want to shoot B&W only , I still think the M8 is the right choice. rgds, Etienne Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jflachmann Posted December 30, 2006 Share #3 Posted December 30, 2006 Even the very best Leica-M-Lenses can't deal with ccd or cmos sensor of 30 million pixel. Such a camera would technically just make no sense. I even don't believe, that there is a market for such a camera (b&w only) at all. No market + sensor not available (30-MP on 24x36) + much to much for the best lenses = no camera I guess, it's a rumor. Jens Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paolo d Posted December 30, 2006 Share #4 Posted December 30, 2006 Even the very best Leica-M-Lenses can't deal with ccd or cmos sensor of 30 million pixel. Such a camera would technically just make no sense. I even don't believe, that there is a market for such a camera (b&w only) at all. No market + sensor not available (30-MP on 24x36) + much to much for the best lenses = no camera I guess, it's a rumor. Jens Hi Jens, I don't know if it's only a rumor, but probably the 30 MP is the same 'commercial' way that Sigma (and Foveon) uses to describe the new camera SD14. 10 MP RGB = 10 R + 10 G + 10 B = 30 MP in BW I'd like to understand if the BW shots whith a such camera could be better (better grayscale ?) than those made with the color camera and then converted in BW Anyway, interesting matter Regards Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted December 30, 2006 Share #5 Posted December 30, 2006 I guess, it's a rumor. The B&W M8 probably is just a rumour but it has been doing the rounds for a while (far longer than the month indicated by Etienne). I think it first started around a year or so ago after a LHSA meeting where a well-placed source mentioned it was in development. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlitos Posted December 30, 2006 Share #6 Posted December 30, 2006 I concur with etienne, I have it from a reliable source that there will be a B+W M body next year. Can't comment on the res though but I suspect it will be high. Just hope we don't need another set of filters! Karlitos Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted December 30, 2006 Share #7 Posted December 30, 2006 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just hope we don't need another set of filters! Ironically, you will need the traditional black and white coloured filters if you want to create well established 'filter' effects (darkening of the sky, etc.). With a purely monochrome image you cannot just go to the channel mixer in Photoshop and play with the various 'filter' settings to get the effect that you want. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlitos Posted December 30, 2006 Share #8 Posted December 30, 2006 Ironically, you will need the traditional black and white coloured filters if you want to create well established 'filter' effects (darkening of the sky, etc.). With a purely monochrome image you cannot just go to the channel mixer in Photoshop and play with the various 'filter' settings to get the effect that you want. Of course, I agree, it was more of a sarcastic dig that we might need to 'fix' it somehow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrism Posted December 30, 2006 Share #9 Posted December 30, 2006 Hi Jens, I don't know if it's only a rumor, but probably the 30 MP is the same 'commercial' way that Sigma (and Foveon) uses to describe the new camera SD14. 10 MP RGB = 10 R + 10 G + 10 B = 30 MP in BW I don't think there would be much point in putting three layers of photosites in a purely monochrome sensor, à la Foveon. If it were to be a 30MP camera it would have to involve a bigger sensor than the M8/DMR, or smaller photosites, or a combination of both wouldn't it? I'd like to understand if the BW shots whith a such camera could be better (better grayscale ?) than those made with the color camera and then converted in BW Anyway, interesting matter Regards The advantage is that you don't need to have a Bayer matrix over the sensor, and if you choose to avoid an AA filter, as Leica currently does in the M8 and DMR, you might get more information arriving undistorted at the sensor. That said, I have tried using an SD10 for B&W and any advantage it might have in not having an AA filter is more than lost in its relatively low pixel count. Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your Old Dog Posted December 30, 2006 Share #10 Posted December 30, 2006 I wonder if the success of the M8 as a fine B&W shooter isn't somewhat enhanced by the magenta problem? I'm hoping I'll be able to find an V1.09 version when my money comes together. I am only interested in the M8 as a B&W shooter, however, I would not feel that way if I couldn't have some control over color which later translates to B&W. How could you tell a B&W only camera the green channel is too dark/light and that you want to vary only it? I could give two beans about the magenta issue. I'll find a work-around for when color is necessary. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankg Posted December 30, 2006 Share #11 Posted December 30, 2006 If they can produce it at a lower price point it might make sense. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianv Posted December 30, 2006 Share #12 Posted December 30, 2006 Kodak does not currently make a B&W version of the CCD chosen for the M8. If they did, it would have been very simple to make a B&W M8. The drive electronics would have stayed the same, only firmware would have to change. Getting rid of the Bayer Filter gives a 2x increase in effective Sensitivity. Twice as much light hits the sensor, rather than being absorbed in the mosaic filter. Getting rid of the filter also removes a layer of thickness between the CCD's elements and the lens. Kodak's last B&W camera was the DCS760m based on the KAF6300 series. I have a 1992 Kodak DCS200ir which uses a KAF1600, still operates. Kodak made color, monochrome, and IR versions of that digital back for the N8008s. The only change required (in addition to the different CCD) was software. I should add that the M8 cost less than 1/2 of the DCS200ir. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthury Posted December 30, 2006 Share #13 Posted December 30, 2006 No market + sensor not available (30-MP on 24x36) + much to much for the best lenses = no camera I am sure there's a market but just not a mass market. But, come to think of it, is the M8 for a mass market? An M8b would be for a finely tuned market and I would think pricing at US$30K as an ala cart option may do the trick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WPalank Posted December 30, 2006 Share #14 Posted December 30, 2006 Ironically, you will need the traditional black and white coloured filters if you want to create well established 'filter' effects (darkening of the sky, etc.). With a purely monochrome image you cannot just go to the channel mixer in Photoshop and play with the various 'filter' settings to get the effect that you want. Actually wattsy, you can do that in the new Photoshop CS3 Beta. The download is free if you are a registered owner of CS2. If you are comfortable with adjustment masks, there are some really powerful stuff you can do with these traditional filters on a image. Here's the download page: http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/photoshopcs3/ Check out Scott Kelby's video here on the new B&W: http://www.photoshopuser.com/cs3/index.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Olof Posted December 30, 2006 Share #15 Posted December 30, 2006 Somewhere i read what a technican from Zeiss said about the expectations some user have. "Why should it be usefull, if you can put 3cm marmelade onto your toast". What do you want with 30.0000 pixels ? Buy a bigger computer ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Olof Posted December 30, 2006 Share #16 Posted December 30, 2006 If they can produce it at a lower price point it might make sense. How should they do that ? Ok if they use a camerabody made of plastic and produce the cam in China.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted December 30, 2006 Share #17 Posted December 30, 2006 I don't think there would be much point in putting three layers of photosites in a purely monochrome sensor, à la Foveon. If it were to be a 30MP camera it would have to involve a bigger sensor than the M8/DMR, or smaller photosites, or a combination of both wouldn't it? Just getting rid of the Bayer filter would allow the camera to use all photosites for calculating luminance, thereby improving resolution. That, I believe, is what he meant. This should be good for a 50 percent increase in effective resolution as measured in lines per image height. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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