S2 versus H4D40 test

[markowich]

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apologies if this was posted before:

 

Hasselblad H4D: Versuch einer Standortbestimmung | photoscala

 

it is am interesting comparism of the H4D40/50 and the S2. it shows that Hasselblad's software works extremely well and one might be lead to conclude that the H4D40 wins out against the S2 due to its optimized software.

peter

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[georg]

To guard against missunderstandings for non-German speakers:

 

- The S2 shots were converted in Adobe Camera Raw without corrections and compared to Phocus-conversions.

 

- They were made from the same standpoint in spite of the difference in aspect ratio and focal length (210mm vs 180mm)

 

- The Hasselblad-images were taken in summer, the S2-images in (overcast) winter

 

And for those interested in the Ektar 100 - comparisons: these were made with a "6400 ppi" - Epson-flatbed...

[markowich]

To guard against missunderstandings for non-German speakers:

 

- The S2 shots were converted in Adobe Camera Raw without corrections and compared to Phocus-conversions.

 

- They were made from the same standpoint in spite of the difference in aspect ratio and focal length (210mm vs 180mm)

 

- The Hasselblad-images were taken in summer, the S2-images in (overcast) winter

 

And for those interested in the Ektar 100 - comparisons: these were made with a "6400 ppi" - Epson-flatbed...

 

overcast in the church?

peter

[georg]

Yes, some churches have windows, look at the 70mm-samples.

[markowich]

Yes, some churches have windows, look at the 70mm-samples.

 

Seems the holy spirit is for hasselblad and against Leica---)))

[alain]

Check the quality of the pictures in the same church in the

S2-test from the same author!!!

I think the S2 pics in this test were made under unfair conditions regarding

the ligth !??

 

Alain

[jplomley]

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And for those interested in the Ektar 100 - comparisons: these were made with a "6400 ppi" - Epson-flatbed...

 

The testing is flawed, as is so often the case. I mean come on, driving a cheap consumer flatbed scanner to a false resolution. At the very least, a drum scan should have been made.

[gogopix]

Well, I don't think either one can hold a candle to a Contax/P65+ !

 

..or do I mean a 1600 watt strobe?...hmm

 

but seriously folks, what is gained with compairing a non adjust S2 vs a Phocus optimized Hassey shot? Actually, detail seems about the same.

 

I bet about 30-50 + on contrast and saturation would do it.

 

That said, if Leica is going to rely on PS, LR there needs to be some crafty profiling done.

 

This SW fixing reminds me of the old tailor story:

 

......a guy goes to pick up a suit and it doesnt fit well. The tailor says "...just hold your hand like this"...still not great, so tailor says".... ok so lean a bit like this"..."..twist a bit.." etc etc

 

......The guy leaves wearing the suit, and is stopped by a passerby who askes..."where did you get that suit?"

the guy says...."...why do you ask..?"

 

The passerbyby says., "Hell, if he can fit a cripple like you he must be a DAMN good tailor!!!"

 

Did someone say Phocus 'tailors' the hassey files????

 

Victor

[Constable]

 

Did someone say Phocus 'tailors' the hassey files????

 

Victor

 

 

LOL ROTFL

[c6gowin]

This SW fixing reminds me of the old tailor story:

 

......a guy goes to pick up a suit and it doesnt fit well. The tailor says "...just hold your hand like this"...still not great, so tailor says".... ok so lean a bit like this"..."..twist a bit.." etc etc

 

......The guy leaves wearing the suit, and is stopped by a passerby who askes..."where did you get that suit?"

the guy says...."...why do you ask..?"

 

The passerbyby says., "Hell, if he can fit a cripple like you he must be a DAMN good tailor!!!"

 

Did someone say Phocus 'tailors' the hassey files????

 

Victor

 

That is too funny.

[markowich]

That is too funny.

 

it is -sort of- interesting sociologically how every test where leica looses gets torn apart here while those which have leica on top get applauded endlessly here.

no, on second thought, i have to correct myself, it is not even interesting from a sociological point of view. it is somewhat on the same intellectual level as ManU against Arsenal except that the soccor fans have more fun. and sometimes more argumentative reason.

peter

[gogopix]

it is -sort of- interesting sociologically how every test where leica looses gets torn apart here while those which have leica on top get applauded endlessly here.

no, on second thought, i have to correct myself, it is not even interesting from a sociological point of view. it is somewhat on the same intellectual level as ManU against Arsenal except that the soccor fans have more fun. and sometimes more argumentative reason.

peter

 

I think they call it football.

 

Anyway , what would one expect? This is a Leica forum; show a test contra-Leica and you will get a rebutal. If it didn't happen I would really question the population here.

For the record, I like Leica, have M9. For MF I have Contax/P65+. But I have watched several forum threads that are not balanced critiques; I read the review and it is clear the intent was NOT really S2 vs H4D. The samples were actually almost useless as the S2 had little if any post and the H4D has the Phull Monty.

 

It is interesting that Leica lack a focused raw processor; we all get THAT message. I hope for Leica, S2 users and the MF community that the raw processing improves, maybe not to the extend of Hassey (which seems quite sopisticated, BTW) but certainly to do justice to the files.

 

regards

Victor

[wildlightphoto]

it is -sort of- interesting sociologically how every test where leica looses gets torn apart here while those which have leica on top get applauded endlessly here.

 

It seems that Peter searches for any comparison, no matter how unsound, that puts down the S2. Interesting sociological implications, indeed!

[c6gowin]

it is -sort of- interesting sociologically how every test where leica looses gets torn apart here while those which have leica on top get applauded endlessly here.

no, on second thought, i have to correct myself, it is not even interesting from a sociological point of view. it is somewhat on the same intellectual level as ManU against Arsenal except that the soccor fans have more fun. and sometimes more argumentative reason.

peter

 

Peter, I just said it was funny. I made no inference that one system or approach (lens design vs software correction) was better than another. I'm kinda surprised you don't see the humor in Victor's analogy.

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Sorry Doug I have to side with Peter at least he had the balls to actually go buy the thing and find out of instead taking everything Leica as superior to everything on the planet. At least he lived the moment which not many here have or really tested very well. Let's just remember he is still shooting the H50 back after it all went down. That is the basic issue with this forum as a whole if it ain't Leica it don't count now that is a even more interesting sociological implication. Bias works both ways my friend.

[wildlightphoto]

Bias works both ways my friend.

 

Yes it certainly does. Peter's is very clear. Forgive my suspicions, but the internet is full of imposters and frauds. Peter tells us he bought and tried the S2 with the 70mm Summarit, but his reported experience is at odds with every other S2/Summarit report and even before his S2 trial report he was more than a little skeptical of the S2's performance. Zero credibility in my book.

[hoppyman]

Guy to me, the thread quickly becomes about opinions, preferences and attitudes rather than the initial comparison. I don't read German (so have to rely on automated translation) and don't have either camera type either and have no informed opinion there. I've only tried the S2 casually.

It appears that the Phocus software works very well for its target files. That's fine. I'm not commenting on the quality of Hasselblad output nor that program.

 

Is the comparison about lens and sensor performance? Has anyone else suggested that the S series lenses are not superb? Peter Karbe says that they outresolve the current and next generation S series sensor already. Then adding Interpolated scans of film as part of the comparison is introducing another variable with the scanner limitations and false data too. But then I think that the film vs. digital back comparison argument is a very old one now and discrete from the S2 vs. H4D40 comparison.

 

The comparison methods don't seem logical to me. Any Raw file ought to have the best processing that works with it applied if you want to compare actual output. The Hasselblad has a proprietary format (having dropped DNG support I think) and a dedicated converter, I understand. The file format rationale, advantages/disadvantages are maybe a whole other discussion.

As yet there is no dedicated S2 support in ACR or LR, only general DNG support.

A couple of minutes with any S2 file in either certainly reveals much more than is rendered by the default DNG settings. That is no different to any other file being developed from any quality camera.

 

Reading the web translated version of the article the author shows Windows screen captures of unstated magnifications (obviously only 100% has no aliasing and the capture sharpening is unknown too) of different files processed with unknown settings in different Raw processors, taken on different occasions in different light and conditions. Certainly no basis to draw any valid conclusions. The only known common ground is that the subject is the same. Whatever people think of any product that is very bad methodology surely. You can illustrate any opinion that you wish by altering the comparison or choosing variations that suit your position. That is silly and non-productive if your intent is a valid comparison.

[glenerrolrd]

Who cares...we already know Peter s conclusions ? Every discussion of the S2 has to degenerate into its not as good as a Blad or a Phase. How many posts by Peter are needed to confirm the exact same POV?

 

We get it Peter ..you prefer the Blad over the S2 because it has superior image quality? You tried the S2 and then went with a Blad . But you are independent and not biased in your POV ? Remind me to never bring up politics .

 

This wasn t a test of the blad against the S2 ..it was two separate tests taken at different times.

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Exactly Roger why people are trying to compare the two is beyond me the way they provide the data and more importantly without raws to show any difference is worthless. I did the comparisons and we provided well over 50 raws for people to process anyway they want both Phase and S2 files. No one on the planet does that for there readers or in there reviews. They are still up on the web for folks to download and the funny thing is no one ever made a superiority comment on any of it because there is none. This forum as i have said before just reading signatures tells how really biased opinions are. People throw opinions and bias around here and never even held the freaking thing. I find it hilarious but more importantly I find it very very sad how narrow minded people really are. The problem for me is I actually like Leica and even the S2 to a certain degree but having a neutral stance on any of this is just brushed off as something else and god knows what. I try to help but I find this forum has become worthless to me anymore. No offense but where is the balance.

[wildlightphoto]

Exactly Roger why people are trying to compare the two is beyond me the way they provide the data and more importantly without raws to show any difference is worthless. I did the comparisons and we provided well over 50 raws for people to process anyway they want both Phase and S2 files. No one on the planet does that for there readers or in there reviews. They are still up on the web for folks to download and the funny thing is no one ever made a superiority comment on any of it because there is none. This forum as i have said before just reading signatures tells how really biased opinions are. People throw opinions and bias around here and never even held the freaking thing. I find it hilarious but more importantly I find it very very sad how narrow minded people really are. The problem for me is I actually like Leica and even the S2 to a certain degree but having a neutral stance on any of this is just brushed off as something else and god knows what. I try to help but I find this forum has become worthless to me anymore. No offense but where is the balance.

 

FWIW Guy I respect your tests and I'm not brushing your opinion off. Peter's another matter.