All that talk about the X1s AF...

[Guest badbob]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

.....I am looking at the M9, not the film ones, coz for one there arent many competent darkrooms left, and I do believe film is really on the way out, if not totally...and I dun have any experience and probably wouldnt have time to figure out DIY processing

 

Just a thought I had - B&W film can be a lot of fun processing at home, but color not so much since contrast control is so difficult.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[NZDavid]

phancj: I recommend you re-post this as a new question on the film forum. I don't believe film is on the way out and film M is a good way to get into Leica M without costing a fortune. It won't devalue either, and you can resell for what you paid if you decide it isn't for you. Perhaps the X1 is a useful digital alternative.

 

As the OP pointed out, its AF speed is laggardly. But other cameras are also slow. Whether this is because of sensor size I have no idea -- some DSLRs have also been criticized for being too slow.

[phancj]

phancj: I recommend you re-post this as a new question on the film forum. I don't believe film is on the way out and film M is a good way to get into Leica M without costing a fortune. It won't devalue either, and you can resell for what you paid if you decide it isn't for you. Perhaps the X1 is a useful digital alternative.

 

As the OP pointed out, its AF speed is laggardly. But other cameras are also slow. Whether this is because of sensor size I have no idea -- some DSLRs have also been criticized for being too slow.

 

Hey NZDavid, Thanks for the recommendations, though i find it really uphill to go back to film, not to mention the lack of competent labs here. I already got the X1, so I will be using it together with my old D300 and some nice lenses, so there's really no urgent need for a new cam. But having toyed with my X1 since Feb as my introduction to Leica, I am intrigued by what the M9 can potentially offer, but have to weigh it against the possibly steep learning curve for RF focusing....if only there is an autofocus M9...decisions...decisions...decisions...

[RichardM8]

I finally have my X1 !!

 

Got it some 5 days ago. Gosh I was forgotten just how gorgeous this camera is just to hold and to look at...

 

Obviously being a new toy thus I'm fiddling around with it endlessly. And obviously I was the most curious how AF would perform.

 

After days of testing I can only say that I think this whole AF thing is blown completely out of proportion from where I stand. It's not nearly as slow as I'd started to believe from all the horror stories. Mine focuses very consistently and accurately, well within a second. Always. And it takes only a little longer in low light. No probs at all.

 

Yes, other cams like the current m4/3s and my Canon SLR are quicker. But it is at least as responsive as my Panny LX3 that I'm using for years (and never had any trouble with). The X1 is even quicker in 3 out of 10 situations and clearly more accurate.

 

And like all others have said already, the IQ from the X1 is simply stunning... Just as the controls are. This is a gem of a compact and I'm very happy with it!

 

Richard.

[nippa]

I finally have my X1 !!

 

t it is at least as responsive as my Panny LX3 that I'm using for years (and never had any trouble with)

 

Richard.

 

I've been telling folk that the X1 can be quicker to focus than my DLux4 and I'm not believed!!

After all this forum talk I didn't believe it myself at first but I tested again and again to conclude that focus times between the two cameras can be much the same.

 

I'd like to use manual focus more but the LCD lacks enough clarity and the assist enlargement goes off too soon for me. ( another Leica fix please )

[Dan States]

I've been telling folk that the X1 can be quicker to focus than my DLux4 and I'm not believed!!

After all this forum talk I didn't believe it myself at first but I tested again and again to conclude that focus times between the two cameras can be much the same.

 

I'd like to use manual focus more but the LCD lacks enough clarity and the assist enlargement goes off too soon for me. ( another Leica fix please )

 

Accuracy is the thing to note here: The Dlux4 and the S90 can focus quite quickly...but have a high error rate (especially the s90). It is only the massive depth of field that makes the focus accuracy on these cameras acceptable.

 

The X1 MUST focus precisely because it's larger format means the out of focus areas will REALLY be out of focus. If you use the X1 like you use a rangefinder camera...focus on one distinct portion of a subject...the af is quite quick. Using it like a micro sensor point and shoot means the camera has to think hard about low contrast, poorly defined subjects and takes longer...It DOES focus on them however...unlike my Canon G's and S90 which tend to default to infinity or completely fail to lock.

 

Example: My G10 and S90 will not focus correctly on a beige berber carpet....the X1 will even while moving, it just takes about 1.25 seconds.

 

Best wishes

Dan

[Dan States]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Another thought: I've heard comments that the X1 is too slow to focus on moving kids...well, so is the S90 and for that matter so are most people using a rangefinder camera. It's HARD to focus on close, moving subjects...I'm for crap using my M6/M8....Only my D700 can do these tricks...

[jsrockit]

But, as you know Dan, you can zone focus on the Ms.

[Guest stnami]

Example: My G10 and S90 will not focus correctly on a beige berber carpet....the X1 will even while moving, it just takes about 1.25 seconds.

that sorta says it all and Jock want you to zone focus:rolleyes:........

[RichardM8]

But, as you know Dan, you can zone focus on the Ms.

 

As with the X1. Works fine.

[dw3645]

I just joined this forum, seems a great place to hang out Leica.

 

Just like any other forum, site or review where the X1 is involved there is a lot of talk and complaints about the AF performance of the X1. Remarks like 'Leica should fix this with the next firmware update' seems to be the most common hope for a solution.

 

I think this will not be the case and here's my attempt to shed some more light on the AF of the X1. Pls feel free to shoot or add anything.

 

The AF performance of the X1 is a direct consequence from the sensor choice. Leica picked the 12 MP Sony APS-C sensor for the best possible IQ and high ISO performance. This sensor is developed for use in a DSLR. By itself no problem but... it works with a low(ish) internal frame rate of 24 f/ps. Compact camera's use contrast AF adjusting the focus back'n forth by rapidly comparing frames from the sensor until focus is achieved. The frame-rate of the sensor is a decisive factor for AF speed. Most other compacts use sensors specifically designed for their purpose in a compact with much higher frame-rates. The Panny GF1 and Olly E-Px models - to which the X1 is compared to a lot - use sensors with no less than 60 f/ps. These cameras will always have much faster AF.

 

When Leica picked the Sony sensor they really knew they had a challenge in the AF department. I think Leica deserves praise for the bold choice for this this sensor as their goal was the best possible IQ in a small & light package. Ricoh did the same with their 50mm A12 module for the GXR that - very likely - uses the same sensor. With the same AF challenges as a result. Both Ricoh and Leica are companies that are not afraid to step off the beaten track.

 

So the AF performance of the X1 is primarily hardware related and therefore cannot be improved through the firmware. Of course, with more efficient programming it might be possible to squeeze out a bit more speed but it will be only a little, if any. Don't expect any miracles here.

 

Leica made some very deliberate choices with the design of the X1. It isn't this way 'cos this is what they got by surprise when they threw some parts together. There is very thorough thinking behind it. The X1 is not a mass volume camera designed to please and appeal to as much people as possible. That is the territory of the big boys with cameras like the GF1 and E-Px. Leica does not have the ambition nor the possibility to compete in that arena (besides the Leica labelled Panny's).

 

The X1 is very much a niche product. Aimed at a very specific audience that knows its limitations and appreciates its strengths. A focussed (heheheh...) camera that delivers true Leica image quality in a light and compact package that is errrmmm.... 'somewhat affordable' in Leica terms.

 

Richard.

 

If turning off the LCD Screen and use a Viewfinder, will it improve the AF a bit? Because the sensor doesn't need to work on showing it on the screen, and the 24fps issue will be gone? Or are they totally separate matter?

[markgay]

The autofocus is slow. It stood out clearly in my early testing of the camera.

 

Of course it doesn't matter with many subjects. But with quite a few it does. It's a fact, whatever people say about whether it bothers them personally, resulting from various design choices that Leica made.

 

There are workarounds. My favourite one is to use AF then switch quickly to manual. However, Leica missed a trick here because they could have had a very nice one key-press, toggle.

 

All the best,

Mark

 

Money Circus

[jsrockit]

that sorta says it all and Jock want you to zone focus:rolleyes:........

 

What, did your eyes skip or flake out? That's not what I said.

[Guest stnami]

zone focus on beige carpet......... joy !! joy!! joy.

[jsrockit]

zone focus on beige carpet......... joy !! joy!! joy.

 

Ok, let me dumb it down for you sir. Dan States said" I've heard comments that the X1 is too slow to focus on moving kids...well, so is the S90 and for that matter so are most people using a rangefinder camera. It's HARD to focus on close, moving subjects...I'm for crap using my M6/M8....Only my D700 can do these tricks..."

 

To which I said "But, as you know Dan, you can zone focus on the Ms."

 

Meaning the M6/M8 works as well as the D700 in certain situations. I said nothing of beige carpet.

[Guest stnami]

let me dumb it up jockstrap

Example: My G10 and S90 will not focus correctly on a beige berber carpet....the X1 will even while moving, it just takes about 1.25 seconds.

[h00ligan]

Stnami. You've lost me here.

[Dan States]

let me dumb it up jockstrap

 

Welcome to my block list bung plug.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[h00ligan]

It's a love hate Amy I stand by my thinking that it is not a good solution for those with one camera..unless landscape is the only type of photography maybe. I do think with a good dslr, it might be an ok second camera, and would be a great third camera, say credit card cam or good mobile phone cam. Theres definitely something about it though, and as a newcomer the most positive feedback I've received was with this camera..which says something (not sure what, maybe my approach is different, maybe it's leica pixie dust). I'm not qualified to quantify why..but it has happened, and that gives me a very strong point to think about. If I knew that every time I used a brush or canvas it was more striking to others, id probably use them more.

[h00ligan]

@dan I'm not sure I understand leicashots thoughts fully..perhaps a language barrier, perhaps contempt. I'm interested, but the approach is very aggressive or terse..not sure. Interesting for now...perhaps less so later.

 

@leicashot is it a language barrier or pretense? I appreciate some of your stuff, you obviously know your way around..but. I wonder why you seem so mad a lot of the time. If you want to share knowledge or participate why not do so in a more constructive manner than name calling and such?